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1/30/2013 4:34 pm
APIAD wrote:
Max I am not going to give you much advise because it is your deal but if the past is the past then you got to let it go. you cant hold it over her head forever that she made a mistake. If you cant move on then you need to focus on what needs done for yourself. If the reason she had an affair are still present or she is still having one I think you know how that ends.
Thanks, AP. All of the best evidence is that she has been a loving and faithful wife to me for the past 11 years. It was hard for me to know that for sure, because once the dominoes of doubt started falling there was no way to stop them short of a full investigation, which she compared to being like a defense witness under cross-examination.
And I guess that bugged her, or something . . .
1/30/2013 3:35 pm
Max I am not going to give you much advise because it is your deal but if the past is the past then you got to let it go. you cant hold it over her head forever that she made a mistake. If you cant move on then you need to focus on what needs done for yourself. If the reason she had an affair are still present or she is still having one I think you know how that ends.
1/30/2013 3:26 pm
Well, as I wrote before, there was a period where we nearly divorced back in 2002 when she left and was dating other guys. The dating preceded the split and the disclosure, so some of her lying in the past did involve that kind of thing. And it can be excruciating to face a wealth of circumstantial evidence indicating an affair, and to confront the one you love and say, "now it is time to tell me the truth; please explain these things, are you having an affair?" and then have the answer come back, "let me see . . . no, this does not ring a bell with me . . . hmmm . . . " Well now I am being a sarcastic bastard, because that's not the way lies about an affair go. They go more like this. "What? WHAT? What the FUCK are you saying? Are you accusing me of having an AFFAIR?!?"
Anyway, I offered her a divorce at that time, we started the process, came within a week or so of finalizing it and she reconsidered. We moved on and our relationship got way better. What surprised me was that little lies continued. Her boyfriend at the time was not going to let her go easily, so I got on the phone with him and chewed him out in an apocalyptic way. I summoned an Al Pacino inside me that I did know I had and laid down the law: "In Indonesia, adultery is not just a bad idea, it is illegal. Do you get it? It is ILLEGAL MOTHERFUCKER!!! If you ever contact my wife again I will inform the police and have you arrested. I will inform your boss that you are having an affair with a married Indonesian woman and insist that you be fired. You will be deported and separated permanently from your family who lives here. Etc." He was a big exec at major international company that would not suffer the sort of PR hit they would take, he knew it, and he crumbled and went away. I felt empowered to do it, after 4.5 months of letting the something I love fly free, because she came back and according to the addage, was now mine forever.
But apparently my wife felt she needed to say goodbye to this douchebag in person. So behind my back she went to his office to break up with him face-to-face. I got a whiff of it a few months later, and then heard the details from her about a year later, after first swearing on a stack of holy texts that she had told me no lies since returning. You can imagine how badly that damaged my trust in her. So, while there is no admission of any more affairs in the past 11 years, each little suspicious thing that pops up can set off domino chain that is very hard for her to stop, and it's very hard for my hyopthesis assessing brain to stop analyzing data. That must have been very hard on her, assuming she was faithful all that time, as the best evidence seems to indicate.
Soul searching is in order, thanks gentlemen.
1/30/2013 3:25 pm
that why i have my money and obligations and my wife has hers. I doubt she even know how much money I have and I dont know how much money she has. I dont care either.
Technically AP, should you and your wife split, you are entitled to half of everything that she has accrued during the marriage, as well as being held accountable for half of the debts accrued. Regardless of the finances being separated, unless that's agreed upon by both parties at the time of the divorce.... That actually won't matter. Many times people strive for an amicable split, but when things go south they end up just doing the process as outlined, which is full disclosure, and splitting it all. Not trying to panic you, but should you piss off your wife enough, or should she feel it's in her best interest to go for halves without the "what's mine is mine, and yours is yours...." then the separate finances won't shield you at all. Also, I'm fairly certain full disclosure is required if trying to establish a case for spousal support if it's contested.
Neither one of us believe in debit or have credit cards. I know, it is unAmerican. And if she wanted to rack up secret debit there wouldnt be much I could do about that anyway, Also if she wants to rape me that is the price the world says I have to pay because I can pee standing up.
1/30/2013 3:02 pm
Do some soul searching. If you're going to work out, then compromise is going to be in order. You'll have to stop looking at things in absolute's.
If you want to have any absolute's, make them about cheating, dating, kissing, etc. Find those boundaries. She likely looks at some of her lies as sparing to you, much like you would probably be less than candid if she gained 10 pounds and asked if you thought her butt looked big. It may be bigger, look bigger, hell it may even smell funny, but if you tell the truth there, you're a dead man.
Instead focus on an proverb that I heard from my former father-in-law who somehow endures my former mother-in-law (much to my amazement, what a complete bitch that woman is about everything...).
"A man can either be happy, or he can be right. Which one is more important to you?"
1/30/2013 2:48 pm
I'm a computer programmer. Everything has an analyzed solution. I demand 100% honesty as well, and cannot trust without it. I feel insulted if I'm lied to, like I'm not important enough for the truth, or not trusted to understand it and handle it.
That really sums it up, I feel insulted by lies.
The best you'll achieve is someone lying to you so you think you have what you need. I think you've found that out.
Indeed. That is what she has said a hundred times over, she doesn't want to hurt me. She's lying to give me what she thinks I want and need. But my response 101 times is that I'm a big boy and can handle the hurt, and that the lies hurt worse than anything she can say anyway.
In fact, I think she's lying/shielding to appear to be the person she feels she needs to be. That's why I think there's a bit of hope. But you are correct, I need to stop trying to compel her to be truthful, via some love-and-philosophy inspired inquisition, thinking that I can make her into the person I need, and rather just accept who she is and see if I can live with it.
She and I have both changed a lot over the years, and she has become much more forthcoming. The problem is that the damage was done early, when she would swear on any stack of holy texts or grandmother's graves while telling a blatant lie. Given that history, it has been very difficult for me to accept anything from her at face value. Shortly before her meltdown, I discovered a bunch of disturbing stuff in her facebook messages, guys asking her out on dates, flirting with her, etc. I stepped in, sorted things out, she gave reasonable explanations, but doubts remained in my mind. I think that drove the point home to her, as I did quite explicitly, "how can I really trust at face value anything you say?"
She's a good-hearted woman and she has tried her best and I can see how that kind of thing wore her down over the years. Did she plant the seeds? Of course. But I probably made it worse because,as Fors grandfather said, I didn't eat the shit burger with a smile. I ate it, but I ate it like a scientist, analyzing each part as it went down.
1/30/2013 1:37 pm
Max, above all the things mentioned, Fors pointed out something that is my personal bane when it comes to marriage. There is no set system that works. You cannot outline a structure of rules and make a marriage work. It is compromise by both sides and understanding, and that blend of two people who are willing to work for each other to get through tough times is extremely difficult to find. I'm a computer programmer. Everything has an analyzed solution. I demand 100% honesty as well, and cannot trust without it. I feel insulted if I'm lied to, like I'm not important enough for the truth, or not trusted to understand it and handle it. I also believe that a system of conduct should work, and the concept that people change, and so do their needs doesn't sit well with me. I'm very much a creature of habit.
It doesn't sound like you have it (sorry for the blunt honesty) in her. I know you love her, find her attractive, etc. Unless you're willing to accept her for who she is, you probably have very little hope man. You cannot bend someone through truth or lies to make them be what you need. The best you'll achieve is someone lying to you so you think you have what you need. I think you've found that out.
Either you love her, all of her, and everything she is (which isn't 100% honest all the time about everything) or you don't. That's one issue you'll need to decide on. The other? If you're doing all the work to save it, eventually you'll burn out. If she doesn't want to save it too, all you'll be able to do is extend the clock. It certainly takes two people to make a thing go right.
Post of the decade. Thanks, Alz.
1/30/2013 12:12 pm
Max, above all the things mentioned, Fors pointed out something that is my personal bane when it comes to marriage. There is no set system that works. You cannot outline a structure of rules and make a marriage work. It is compromise by both sides and understanding, and that blend of two people who are willing to work for each other to get through tough times is extremely difficult to find. I'm a computer programmer. Everything has an analyzed solution. I demand 100% honesty as well, and cannot trust without it. I feel insulted if I'm lied to, like I'm not important enough for the truth, or not trusted to understand it and handle it. I also believe that a system of conduct should work, and the concept that people change, and so do their needs doesn't sit well with me. I'm very much a creature of habit.
It doesn't sound like you have it (sorry for the blunt honesty) in her. I know you love her, find her attractive, etc. Unless you're willing to accept her for who she is, you probably have very little hope man. You cannot bend someone through truth or lies to make them be what you need. The best you'll achieve is someone lying to you so you think you have what you need. I think you've found that out.
Either you love her, all of her, and everything she is (which isn't 100% honest all the time about everything) or you don't. That's one issue you'll need to decide on. The other? If you're doing all the work to save it, eventually you'll burn out. If she doesn't want to save it too, all you'll be able to do is extend the clock. It certainly takes two people to make a thing go right.
1/30/2013 12:07 pm
that why i have my money and obligations and my wife has hers. I doubt she even know how much money I have and I dont know how much money she has. I dont care either.
Technically AP, should you and your wife split, you are entitled to half of everything that she has accrued during the marriage, as well as being held accountable for half of the debts accrued. Regardless of the finances being separated, unless that's agreed upon by both parties at the time of the divorce.... That actually won't matter. Many times people strive for an amicable split, but when things go south they end up just doing the process as outlined, which is full disclosure, and splitting it all. Not trying to panic you, but should you piss off your wife enough, or should she feel it's in her best interest to go for halves without the "what's mine is mine, and yours is yours...." then the separate finances won't shield you at all. Also, I'm fairly certain full disclosure is required if trying to establish a case for spousal support if it's contested.
1/30/2013 12:05 pm
Guys, let me be clear: I fucked up big time. This is a fabulous woman. She has one major flaw in that she does not communicate well with a guy who thrives on "cards on the table" open communication, and I turn into a worrying handwringing worm when communication is poor. I am busting my ass to save it and the big concern is that I am too late. In the end, it is my belief that I can control other people through well-crafted arguments that is as much to blame as anything, so I just need to focus on being a better person, being considerate around the house, and figuring that anyway you slice--after sixteen years of running around in circles--she and I need to press the reset button an a few things. So, if I dregde up the past in explaining to you what happened, perhaps it helps me from having that conversation with her.
Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions. She is off for a big interview that will be a much better job, and I'm about 98% sure they'll make an offer within 48 hours because she is that good. The job is 55 miles away--one way--and if she gets it, we'll start planning ways for her move out and move closer to that job. Not sure if that will be a good thing or not, since the vibe around the house the past 18 hours--or at least the 25 minutes or so we were together--has been good. But at this point, time spent together around the house--burping, farting, splashing too much water on the sink while brushing my teeth, etc--is more likely to reinforce her decision to split. We all need to have a tremendous desire to be around another person to accept that requires being a witness to their daily maintenance of body and mind.
1/30/2013 10:37 am
that why i have my money and obligations and my wife has hers. I doubt she even know how much money I have and I dont know how much money she has. I dont care either.
1/30/2013 10:32 am
My grandfather once told me that he made it to 50+ years of marriage because even though he knew every once in a while he was going to be handed a shit burger, he simply smiled, took a big bite and ate it.
The biggest pet peeve I have with my wife is her compulsive spending of money we don't have. I balanced our checkbook last night and when I picked it up the register stated there was 14 CENTS in the account. Not a big deal since tomorrow is payday, but still somewhat startling to see that there's so little in the account. When I went online to balance it, I discovered that my wife, who had made the last few entries and had written $0.14 in the register, spent $30 at the store yesterday--after the account was down to $0.14. Her ATM card worked because a couple of checks hadn't been cashed yet. You get the picture, the account is overdrawn.
10 years ago that would have made me crazy and we would have had a big argument and at the end of the day nothing would have changed and she'd do the same thing a couple of months from now. Now, unbeknownst to her (is this dishonest?), after payday I stash an extra $100 in savings knowing that she's inevitably going to spend more than we have and I can simply transfer the money back to checking when she does. In the months she doesn't do it we actually end up with a little extra money and in the months she does, no big deal.
I guess that's my long-winded way of saying that if it's worth it, even if you feel you've done everything you can do--try to do more. If it isn't worth it, don't bother. But the sense I get is that your preference is to stay together. If that's correct--then keep working.
As far as the lies and deception, obviously she wasn't as happy for at least part of the last 18 months as she appeared. My advice (take it for what it's worth), focus less on her not telling you she was unhappy and more on solutions to why she wasn't happy. Assuming you can work through the problems, then you will have shown her by actions that the only way to fix things that are broken is to bring them to your attention and that internalizing them doesn't help.
Hell Max, I don't know. We've never met and we're 2,000 miles apart. But those are my thoughts.
Good luck.
1/30/2013 12:18 am
I appreciate your two cents, Fors. Thanks.
For starters, on the superficial level it is me making all the effort to keep this together. She is the one who wants out. And on the superificial level it was me who worked hard to keep things together all these years. It was she who backed out four times, and me who patiently gave her enough space until it seemed like she was ready to consider coming back, at which point I asked, I begged, I pleaded, successfully three times. I adore her. Hopefully that part is clear. I am willing to do the work. Our next anniversary will be our 16th if we make it that far.
Second I haven't gone into the things I can do on this board, but I am doing them and busting my ass in the process. Obviously being unemployed and having a very uncertain career future looms large. That is all on me, although I supported her for a long time and I am from a liberated enough environment that I am used to women being the principle breadwinners. Still there's a laundry list of shit I could have done better and I am working hard to make it up. Her comment upon her return today was, "I am really surprised by how you fixed up the house. It was a really nice surprise. Thank you." I had built the shelf for the bathroom I'd been talking about, and built the DVD shelves for the entertainment center, and taken a bunch of inspirational quotes we like and photoshopped them into our favorite family photos and decorated the walls. I cooked her her favorite meal. I cleaned the house top to bottom with a toothbrush. Stuff like that. She has legitimate gripes with me and I am working to make amends.
Third, the secrets concern both things: those that related directly to me and that I deserve a straight answer on, and stuff from before we were married. The latter don't really matter, other than that there's not a lot of point spending energy keeping that stuff in the freezer, so to speak. But that's her business. But as for the former, to put it plainly, I spoke virtually every week for the past 18 months of how lucky we were to have found the person we wanted to spend the rest of our lives with, and to have found the place we wanted to live. Yes, we have money problems, but everyone has those and we will work through ours. So, to hit me on November 26th with divorce means she was biting her tongue as I was saying all that other stuff. She had her opportunities to say, "I wish I felt as confident as you do, because for me to know I was with the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, I would want to see changes with A, B, C, and D." In this day and age, it is simply inappropriate in my world view to bite one's tongue until finally bursting out with, "It's done, over, kaput. I've kept it all inside too long," especially to a guy who has preached open communication from the get go. As for the other stuff, I will respect her privacy, but yeah, it was shit a fiance or husband deserves to know. She knows that and acknowledges as much.
As for the girl from my past, that's the real test. But it's not like I set out to make her jealous. She's a close mutual friend of ours, and under any other circumstance I would pass the news along to my wife. You can manipulate with lies and with truth. I don't have any problem with the latter. I was thinking of this on my walk this evening. She uses lies and deceit to manipulate me, and I hate it. Great orators, Thomas Paine and Abraham Lincoln, use the truth to maniuplate people. I am all onboard with that. But I detest the former--which is probably why I am not a member of an organized religion.
So, bottom line, for the things I can change, I am working very very hard. A big lingering question for me is what to do about the lies and deception. That's the conundrum. Thanks for your thoughts, Fors.
On a positive note, since she has been more forthcoming about what truly bothers her, we have both been far more respectful to one another. We have both apologized for the specific things we did that hurt one another. Yes, she apologized for the lies and poor communication, and what they did to me and our relationship. If it is going to be divorce, we are bumping our way toward a mature, responsible, amicable one. The girls are OK.
1/29/2013 10:35 pm
Max, you and I see eye-to-eye on very little, if anything, so feel free to give what I say whatever weight you think it's worth. But from an objective outsider's opinion, if you use "I may get together with someone from my past" as a means to try to get your wife to take you back then it seems to me that your being the complete antithesis of the open and honest person you claim to be. I'd call it deceptive and manipulative. And quite frankly, if the only reason she comes back is the threat of this other woman, then what's to keep her around once the other woman is out of the picture?
I've never gone through a divorce or even ever been separated, so I can't pretend to understand what your going through. But speaking as someone who has been married almost 18 years, if there's anything I've learned it's that very little in a relationship works in absolutes. Everything you've spelled out for resolution is in terms of what she needs to do. What about you? Marriage is about compromise. If only one side yields, it's likely to lead to resentment. The question you have to answer is whether your marriage is worth giving a little on your part. If it is, then tell your wife and try to work through the issues. If it isn't, that's fine too, but don't pretend that it's all on her.
I have no idea, and quite frankly it's none of my business what the secrets are, if you know, or what you think they are if you don't know. But rather than demanding she divulge the secret, maybe you just confirm that there are secrets and, if so, whether they directly involve you. If it's something that directly involves you such as an affair or some other breach of the marriage, I can completely understand why that's an issue for you and you deserve full disclosure. But if the issue (assuming there is one) is something that preceded your arrival in her life, then consider simply letting it be. Neither you nor your wife stopped being an individual when you married. If there's something in her past that she doesn't want to disclose and it doesn't involve you, let her have her little secret. For whatever reason it's important enough to her that she doesn't want to tell you. Like I said, if it directly involves you, that's different, but if it doesn't, let it go.
At a minimum, it seems to me you have at least 2 reasons to make some effort to salvage the relationship and they're 13 and 5 years old. At the end of the day, even if you end up divorced I have to believe you're going to want to maintain your relationship with your kids. The better the relationship you and your wife maintain, the better the relationship with your kids. If you and your (ex)wife fight, the kids will pick sides. Regardless of which side they choose, it isn't good for a child to pick a side adverse to a parent.
Just my two cents.
1/29/2013 3:30 pm
The best part of her trip to decompress was that it gave her time to think and communicate her core issues. Now that I understand, I have a bit more peace of mind, even though it is still grinding toward divorce
It has happened three times before that she has called it quits, twice while we were engaged and once after 4.5 years of marriage. We came within a week or so of our divorce being finalized back then. Each time I invited her to come back, we reconciled, and our relationship moved to a new and better place. While my love for her is unconditional, the boundaries of our relationship are not. I am the sort of person who requires complete honesty and openness, leastways for anyone who I would let get close to me. I explained that minimum requirement before we ever got serious, and then again each time I took her back. Each time she has said she understands this and agrees wholeheartedly. Alas, each time she was harboring a malingering secret as she promised complete honesty.
After the near divorce, and I discovered she was still keeping dirty secrets, I despaired, but for the sake of our daughter I bit my tongue and stayed with her. It wasn't all bad, after all. Much of it was great. She's beautiful, we have great physical chemistry, she has oodles of artistic talent, she's a great mother and wife--excpect for the secrecy parts--and she's a genuinely nice person who quickly winds up among the most popular people in whatever group she congregates with. And so with time I rationalized, "huh, God has a sense of humor. I have always said that honesty is the single most important thing to me. But now here I am hitched for life, mostly happily, to the least honest person whom I have ever let into my close circle."
There was stasis there for 7 years. The problem I did not foresee, but which is entirely reasonable whn I consider it, is that it was not good enough for her to be married to someone who did not trust her / believe her lies and deception. So, we're stuck in a cycle, me hurt because she cannot open up to me, even after 16.5 years, and her hurt because I'm hurt and wind up hurting her through my own hurt.
The solution sounds so obvious: just try complete honesty and see if that works. If it doesn't, how could it be worse than this? But the cycle can't be broken that way: people protect themsleves with little lies and deception for reasons peculiar to themselves. Nor can I cannot simply accept her as she is and move on because she is not content with a husband who sees her as secretive and deceptive. The last option is for me to believe her little lies and deception, but then we go back to square one: truth and honesty are the most important things to me.
So, there you go . . . 6-18 months she'll realize that her becoming an honest person is a much better solution than me becoming a dishonest one (who pretends to believe her lies). If we are still attracted to each other, and unatached, we'll wind up back together.
In other news, do any of you guys have a woman in your past who, when your wife gets really mad at you she says, "You should have married so-and-so!" Well, I have one those. A nice girl whom I met a year or so before my wife. We all know each other we all like each other. Shortly before I met my wife this other girl told me she was falling in love with me, but my options were limited, even if I wanted to pursue that relationship, because she was my student. Anyhoo, she wrote this morning to tell me that after, what . . . 10-12 years of marriage, she and her husband are divorcing, and she'll be in the States later this summer. I am about to go pick up my wife from the Airporter stop, our first meeting as a couple that has agreed to divorce. I'm interested to see my wife's reaction to the news about so-and-so . . .