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    Topic review (newest first):

    5/24/2017 4:49 pm

    Im sure the constitution will remain fine.

    5/24/2017 3:03 pm


    It's unfortunate, but the situation is settled. I don't like it, but that's what happened. The people of Tulsa will get to live with this case and the results, and hopefully nothing else happens. 
     

    5/24/2017 10:54 am

    Again not to debate but prosecution often times do not like to give juries a lesser charge because it is easy for them to choose it even if the high charge is justified.  Human nature is to doubt.  So as a general rule, if they feel they can prove the highest charge it is tried without a second option.  The lesser options are saved for plead deals. 

    Also 2nd degree manslaughter is punishable with 2 year minimum, 4 year maximum penalty, or county jail time.  I doubt a guilty verdict on that charge would have satisfied the outraged anyway.  Idk but if OK is like IL she would have been eligible for felony probation or some similar shit.  So she might have not done any jail time.  True she wouldnt have her job but as i said the outraged woukdnt see that as a victory. 

    Also by the jury's very own words they dismissed second degree manslaughter by repeatedly stating her actions were justified. The prosecution would have failed on that charge as well. Their hangup in finding the defendant free of fault is their own ignorance on what a taser is and isnt. If there was evidence  (training) that put the defendant to blame it would havd been used in trial.  There is no magic button that makes use of force look pretty.

    It would be my guess she doesnt actually work again.  Maybe sits in the office for awhile before the city can figure out how to pay her to go away. 

    "

    Manslaughter in the 1st Degree:

    1. When perpetrated without a design to effect death by a person while engaged in the commission of a misdemeanor.

    2. When perpetrated without a design to effect death, and in a heat of passion, but in a cruel and unusual manner, or by means of a dangerous weapon; unless it is committed under such circumstances as constitute excusable or justifiable homicide.
    3. When perpetrated unnecessarily either while resisting an attempt by the person killed to commit a crime, or after such attempt shall have failed.

    Punishment:

    Any person guilty of manslaughter in the first degree shall be guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary for not less than four (4) years to no more than life.


    Manslaughter in the 2nd Degree:

    Every killing of one human being by the act, procurement or culpable negligence of another, which, under the provisions of this chapter, is not murder, nor manslaughter in the first degree, nor excusable nor justifiable homicide, is manslaughter in the second degree.

    Punishment:

    Any person guilty of manslaughter in the second degree shall be guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary not more than four (4) years and not less than two (2) years, or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one (1) year, or by a fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or both fine and imprisonment."

    5/24/2017 2:38 am

    Yeah i have not the energy to mindlessly debate...just thought it was interesting.

    5/23/2017 9:33 am


    I had a mountain of stuff to say about this. Mostly about questioning why a DA would go after a 1st degree charge knowing they couldn't satisfy the burden of proof. Possibly done on purpose? Puts the DA in a possibly corrupt looking place to me. The tragedy above all is this officer who was just given a pass for killing someone is back to work with a gun. If the jurors write letters that point blank say that they aren't comfortable with her being blameless, and they were "forced" to say not guilty, then she most certainly is not "innocent" in the realm of public trust. Take her badge, retire her. I do not feel comfortable with her writing parking tickets at this point. She might need to kill someone else.

    AP before you reply, I'm positive you disagree with probably everything I've said, and that's okay. I respect your opinion, and normally I'm pro-officer. I'm not going to fight with you about this again. She's innocent, like OJ, Casey Anthony, and Aaron Hernandez (of the double murder anyway).

    5/20/2017 7:31 pm

    On the Matter of the Open Window:

    It is clear to the Jury after intensely studying the video, still photos, and testimony that the windows to the SUV driven by Terrance Crutcher that evening were open and that the Jury believes from said evidence that Terrance Crutcher did in fact reach into the window disobeying the instructions of the police officers on location.

    On the Matter of the Instant in which Terrance Crutcher was shot:

    The Jury concluded that any officer put in that situation at that exact moment and regardless of the skin color, gender or size of the suspect, would have performed the same way, which is in accordance with their law enforcement training.  By all evidence presented, that instant required action, which two officers took simultaneously. That moment, according to the evidence presented, was unfortunate and tragic, but  justifiable due to the actions of the suspect.

    On the Matter of the Moments Proceeding the Weapons Discharge:

    While Officer Shelby made a justifiable decision at the very moment she pulled the trigger according to her training, when reviewing the moments before she discharged her weapon, the jury  wonders and some believe  that she had other options available to subdue Mr. Crutcher before he reached his car. What is unclear based on the testimony and the evidence presented in that courtroom, was whether her judgement at that time was in accordance to her training as a police officer in the line of duty or whether her training allowed her to holster her service weapon and draw her Taser instead. There was no evidence presented that she was acting outside of her training, or even if her training allowed her flexibility of a decision at that point.  All discussion of what her training requires in that instant, as presented in the trial, favored the Defense's case.

    The Jury, without knowledge of the guidelines learned through law enforcement training, believes that a Taser attempt to subdue Mr. Crutcher before he reached his vehicle  could have saved his life and that potential scenario was seemingly an option available to her; however, there was no evidence presented that her extensive training allowed such an option. The Jury could not, beyond a reasonable doubt, conclude that she did anything outside of her duties and training as a police officer in that situation. This was critical to the verdict rendered. Because of this perceived option that she may have had, many on the Jury could never get comfortable with the concept of Betty Shelby being blameless for Mr. Crutcher's death, but  due to the lack of direct or even circumstantial evidence that she was acting outside of her training in the 30 feet prior to Mr. Crutcher reaching the window of that SUV, the Jury was forced by the rule of law to render a not guilty verdict.

    On the Matter of Heat of Passion:

    The Jury was provided very specific instructions regarding the Heat of Passion aspect of the Manslaughter in the First Degree charge. Key to these instructions was that the intense emotion had to dominate the person's though process at the very instant the act of homicide was committed. Evidence presented led the Jury to believe that Officer Shelby was indeed fearful, increasingly so as the incident escalated. However, the Jury concluded that she did act with in the confines of her training at that very moment when the homicide was committed. The evidence presented did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt anything to the contrary that Training, not fear, dominated in her choice to perform that action at that time she discharged her weapon, which was evidenced at least in part by the fact that two officers simultaneously fired their weapons in response to Mr. Crutcher's actions.

    On the Matter of Deliberation:

    I am confident this was a strong jury and it was an honor to serve with them. Each took his or her respective civic duty and the oath made to the court very seriously. Each was engaged in the process, taking notes of the extensive and complicated evidence and testimony brought before them. Each honored the instructions given by the Judge throughout the process. The deliberation, though long, was extremely efficient with regard to the ground it covered in reviewing and discussing the evidence. The members of the Jury were collaborative and respectful of each others views as we muddled through a very complicated matter.

    In addition to the review of the testimony and evidence presented in court, we also very carefully studied and considered the judges instructions which guided the Jury in how to reach its conclusions under the narrow constraints of the law.

    I believe that I speak for the whole of the Jury, when I say that the  general public in these types of cases are unaware of just how specifically the rule of law dictates how a Jury must reach a verdict.  The State, in this case, had the burden to prove guilt to each element of the respective charge, beyond a reasonable doubt. Some elements are extremely specific, which makes it more challenging for the prosecution to cross that barrier of "beyond a reasonable doubt". In this case, after extensive deliberation, we the Jury, in accordance with the instructions provided by the Court and through examination of all evidence presented, could not overcome guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and consequently delivered a "not guilty" verdict.

    On the Matter of Terrance Crutcher's History:

    Terrance Crutcher had an arrest history and multiple outstanding arrest warrants. Guilt in previous incidents, were not considered as a means to justify Officer Shelby's actions.

    5/20/2017 7:30 pm

    Not to reopen this debate but the foremans letter was very informational.  While the jury thinks a Taser would have solved problem without a justified shooting they could not fault the officer without knowing what she was trained.  Ill tell you what she was trained, to use lethal force when lethal force is necessary.  As far as Taser goes, for liability reasons and practical reasons Taser or departments will never dictate when it should be used, only when it shouldn't.  Never would policy by the department state that you can tase every subject who doesnt follow commands.  Anyway just because I feel it sheds a highly accurate light on why she never could have, should have, would have been found guilty.

    9/22/2016 11:56 pm


    alz wrote:

    I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you, we've pissed each other off enough. You feel quite passionately about the job that officers face, and how it is humans at the end of these badges and guns, not the robots that modern society needs. I can disagree with your situational assessment, but I don't disagree with that. At the heart of my argument I'd like to see us live in a country where minorities do not fear, hate and distrust the police as a group that is happy to murder them in the streets if given half a chance. I know that the media will do you no favors on this at all. I believe that officers should be as proactive and transparent as possible to fight off a media that seems hell bent in causing a race war. I'm pretty sure you would agree with the heart of that statement as well. That's where we can stop it because the rest of this debate is actually pointless. Like Wilson, Shelby will never wear a badge again when the dust settles. You think I'm wrong, but if she's not fired, she'll resign. The public will not allow her to be a peace officer after this. Her armed presence adds a threat level to any future situation. Her ability to protect and serve is gone by the national issue and the mob of people who saw what happened and said, "What the fuck? A stalled car and you ice him?". There will be a few months to harbor that suspicion, followed with no charges and possibly a deferment to a federal agency who will decide the same thing. She'll be cleared, and 100% unable to be a cop effectively ever again. 

    I don't know why I didn't think of this 50 posts ago, would have stopped the argument a lot sooner. I could be wrong, and by some of your posts you certainly think I am on some things But I don't think I'm wrong about where it lands. 
     

    It's apparent that neither one of us knows shit...
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/tulsa-police-officer-charged-mans-death-203750472.html

    9/22/2016 11:54 pm


    I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you, we've pissed each other off enough. You feel quite passionately about the job that officers face, and how it is humans at the end of these badges and guns, not the robots that modern society needs. I can disagree with your situational assessment, but I don't disagree with that. At the heart of my argument I'd like to see us live in a country where minorities do not fear, hate and distrust the police as a group that is happy to murder them in the streets if given half a chance. I know that the media will do you no favors on this at all. I believe that officers should be as proactive and transparent as possible to fight off a media that seems hell bent in causing a race war. I'm pretty sure you would agree with the heart of that statement as well. That's where we can stop it because the rest of this debate is actually pointless. Like Wilson, Shelby will never wear a badge again when the dust settles. You think I'm wrong, but if she's not fired, she'll resign. The public will not allow her to be a peace officer after this. Her armed presence adds a threat level to any future situation. Her ability to protect and serve is gone by the national issue and the mob of people who saw what happened and said, "What the fuck? A stalled car and you ice him?". There will be a few months to harbor that suspicion, followed with no charges and possibly a deferment to a federal agency who will decide the same thing. She'll be cleared, and 100% unable to be a cop effectively ever again. 

    I don't know why I didn't think of this 50 posts ago, would have stopped the argument a lot sooner. I could be wrong, and by some of your posts you certainly think I am on some things But I don't think I'm wrong about where it lands. 
     

    9/22/2016 3:58 pm

    "Minorities have a responsibility in this too, but so do officers. Provide the transparency, show the stops, show the details. "

    The actions i saw the officer perform were imo (admittedly there may be something come up that changes my mind) within justifiable reason.  There is no reason for me to believe that her action previous to that would have been out of line.  Not to mwntion she is a female and this was a huge dude.  I just cant for the life of me honestly believe this women to have done anything to provoke this. 

    This man was a bad dude with a history of fighting the cops and drug use.  As far as minorities responsible i dont want to really get into that.  Id say burning down cvs, looting semi, starting fires, throwing rocks and shooting fireworks at cops or ambusing and killing them isnt a good start to building a better america.  I dont think that is an accurate reflection of the black community.  Unfortunately it is the black community that gets the press.  Just like bad cops get the press, however in the case of this tulsa shooting im not calling her a bad cop having seen no evidence of that. Forgetting to flip a switch doesnt make you a bad person or a bad cop.

    9/22/2016 3:43 pm

    "I believe that saying "Us cops have always been killin black folk" is not an adequate reason to continue the practice. "

    More irresponsible talk.  And if you are trying put put those words in my mouth you are on the wrong path.  This attitude is what has spun this whole national issue out of control.

    "I also believe that gear provided to the officers is not provided so it can sit idle and not be used when needed. "

    Camera or taser....either way legislation and the supreme court disagree with you on both. 

    "I would love to get to a point where it's just human error. We're not there, don't kid yourself. "

    Not flipping a switch is human error.  Again you are making something into what it is not.  Fanning the fire.  That is part of the problem, not part of the solution.  Since your not dealing with facts of evidence that is present and play the "what if" game im interested in what you think happened in the unfilmed time that made the subjects actions justified?

    "Eliminating the only source of evidence to prevent a national episode because you shot a minority who was stranded on the highway is not just another "oops!" type thing. It's a big mistake, it borders on negligence to me"

    First of it isnt the only source.  There is a helicopter and other dashcams.  Not to mention other police officers who will have to testify.  Im sure they are all liars to tho.  There is drugs collect from the scene and a further evidence to follow.  Not to mention a history that involved firing a gun out a car window, drug trafficing charges, possession of a weapon and multipal cases where force had to be used against him to affect an arrest.  Allegedly his dad stated he had a ongoing problem with PCP.  He did 4 years in prison.  He has a documented violent, drug related  crimianl history.  Secondly calling not flipping a switch negligence is negligence.

    "She's a cop after all, and should be allowed to shoot anyone for any reason and it should be sunshine and rainbows for the rest of us! "

    This is another irresponsible statement.  Not to mention incorrect.  Again hopefully you are not attempting to put words in my mouth.

    "I don't care how accidental my mistake is, if I did anything that dumped that type of problem on my company, I'd be fired. "

    She will not be fired for not turning her camera on.  It is minor and you are overreacting.  Scapegoating at this point to support an arguement that has only one hypothetical point.

    9/22/2016 3:33 pm


    And yes I'm aware when you were talking about what's happened since the dawn of time, you weren't talking about shooting minorities, but human mistakes. 

    There is never a bad time to evaluate whether the officers are doing the right thing. I believe any mistake by an officer can be nothing, or it can magnify pretty quickly. More than most jobs, everything you do has a consequence, and unfortunately that goes back to a higher standard. I cannot imagine a world where a work decision I made pisses off 75 million Americans and leads directly back to my director, but if I do that I know exactly how long I won't be employed for. I'm not totally looking for a scapegoat, but this shit is really been a focus for 2-3 years now, and it's not getting better. So whatever we're doing or not doing isn't enough. Minorities have a responsibility in this too, but so do officers. Provide the transparency, show the stops, show the details. Show your work. Then you get a bunch of people watching an officer remain calm while dealing with crazy abuse or just crazy and nobody can say a word different about the choices made. 

    AP had you been a minority with a history of causing cops to shoot you, I promise you my speech to you personally would be very different and a lot more focused on what y'all need to impro

    9/22/2016 3:11 pm


    AP you keep asking me to focus on his last action of not obeying the police commands. I've agreed, but this does not 100% exonerate the officer. Also you keep making this a minor mistake, you've made worse. 

    A brake fake where I think I'm going through an intersection but stop is an oops. If someone hits me it's a bigger oops, but no big deal. If that flinching action is seen by a car coming through the intersection and they react by swerving away, crash into the lane over, slam into a light pole and push that other car into a head on collision with a semi which kills 7 people in total it's still the same mistake, but it's a little bigger now.... 

    Yes she forgot to flip a switch. Yes there could have been reasons, but wow what a time for that shit.

    9/22/2016 2:54 pm


    APIAD wrote:

    You and your camera. Human errors will never stop. They have been happening since the start of time. You cant address issues by saying the real probelm is human error. Its like saying world peace could be accomplished if everyone would just get along.

    That's a big difference between you and I. I believe that saying "Us cops have always been killin black folk" is not an adequate reason to continue the practice. I also believe that gear provided to the officers is not provided so it can sit idle and not be used when needed. 

    I would love to get to a point where it's just human error. We're not there, don't kid yourself. 

    Arresting the wrong Michael Washington when serving a warrant? That's human error. Messing up a parole date when entering someone in the DOC database and giving them a release 2 years early? That's a human error. 

    Eliminating the only source of evidence to prevent a national episode because you shot a minority who was stranded on the highway is not just another "oops!" type thing. It's a big mistake, it borders on negligence to me. It's going to bring a world of negative press to every officer in the country. I don't care how accidental my mistake is, if I did anything that dumped that type of problem on my company, I'd be fired. So would you, so would Fors, so would anyone else.

    You are going to have to understand that officers play in a very high stakes world, and that little "oops" is not one that can just be laughed off. I apologize for the hard line I draw on this, I know you don't agree. She's a cop after all, and should be allowed to shoot anyone for any reason and it should be sunshine and rainbows for the rest of us! I just don't agree. I think some actions demand accountability and her career demands a transparency she didn't think was needed. I think she'd be better suited working a different job.
     

    9/22/2016 2:41 pm

    You and your camera.  Human errors will never stop.  They have been happening since the start of time.  You cant address issues by saying the real probelm is human error.  Its like saying world peace could be accomplished if everyone would just get along.

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