APRTW wrote:

It opens the door for everyone to say that there test could have been tainted.

I would hope that no one else's test results spent the night next to a courier's leftover chinese food.

APRTW wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

APRTW wrote:

It opens the door for everyone to say that there test could have been tainted.

I would hope that no one else's test results spent the night next to a courier's leftover chinese food.

I would assume that guy isnt employed.  However once one result is overturned the door has been opened to more.  Maybe not for that reason but I am sure million dollar athlete can buy some good legal help.

It doesn't matter who you hire if the proper procedures are followed.

It's like Miranda Rights.  In theory, every case in which the criminal defendant provides a statement is subject to a Miranda challenge, but how many of those are actually successful?  If anything it just further highlights that MLB is being run by a bunch of clowns who really don't know what the hell they're doing.  Assuming the system had worked correctly, why is the courier taking the sample to Kinko's for shipment?  For that matter, why is a courier handling the sample at all.  I realize ballplayers live all over the world, but at least for those who live in the US, why isn't a laboratory employee going out to collect the sample and then the laboratory responsible for shipping it to the testing site.

forsberg_us wrote:

It doesn't matter who you hire if the proper procedures are followed.

It's like Miranda Rights.  In theory, every case in which the criminal defendant provides a statement is subject to a Miranda challenge, but how many of those are actually successful?  If anything it just further highlights that MLB is being run by a bunch of clowns who really don't know what the hell they're doing.  Assuming the system had worked correctly, why is the courier taking the sample to Kinko's for shipment?  For that matter, why is a courier handling the sample at all.  I realize ballplayers live all over the world, but at least for those who live in the US, why isn't a laboratory employee going out to collect the sample and then the laboratory responsible for shipping it to the testing site.

A debate on Miranda might be better to have at a later time.  Here are some clips from Rosenthal.

"The chain-of-custody issue — the two-day delay between the collection of Braun’s sample and its delivery to FedEx — raised doubt for Das, sources said. So, perhaps, did the peculiar test result, which revealed that Braun’s testosterone level was three times higher than any previous player’s, according to one source."

"Braun, then, could point to A) the bizarre result of the initial test; Braun said he has passed at least 25 tests in his career, including three in the past year and B) the collector who took his test home rather than simply drop it at FedEx for the next available delivery."

"The lesson in all this is that baseball needs to tighten up. I find it difficult to believe that the leak to ESPN came from Braun’s camp; what would have been the motive? I also find it difficult to believe that the collection company handled Braun’s sample so sloppily; why give any player such an opening to challenge the result?"

"Baseball’s joint drug policy states, “Absent unusual circumstances, the specimens should be sent by FedEx to the laboratory on the same day they are collected.† The nearest FedEx store was still open, but no longer shipping that day, sources said."

alz wrote:

If the object is to collect valid samples that have the best chance of catching offenders, I can see the reasoning for late samples, much of these violating substances are completely untraceable before 24 hours has eclipsed.

I see no reason for late samples.  If Fedex is closed, dont collect the sample.

I dont think they can flush the steroids out of their systems on demand.  If they could testing for it would be pointless.

forsberg_us wrote:

APRTW wrote:

It opens the door for everyone to say that there test could have been tainted.

I would hope that no one else's test results spent the night next to a courier's leftover chinese food.

Mmmmmm ... Apple Juice!!

APRTW wrote:

I dont think they can flush the steroids out of their systems on demand.  If they could testing for it would be pointless.

I've seen people advertising cleaners that will "remove all traces of anabolic roids" within 3 days...

I'm trying to remember the source, but when Braun was busted for crazy test levels, someone was cracking up about it. I think he even went so far as to call Braun an idiot because you have to juice up the DAY OF THE TEST to get caught with any type of high-end designer juice. It returns your T-levels to normal within 24 hours, and is otherwise untraceable.... I'm hunting that source down.

Minimal clean time I found for any listed Steroid on Steroid.com was 1-3 days for the TESTASERONE SUSPENSION. The Clear and The Clean were not listed, but my understanding from following the Balco shit was the dosage was 2 drops under the tongue, and you were roided for then next 4-8 hours. Downtime of another 16-20 hours and it could not be found or proven. Which was why there was such a push for a governmental inquiry because the Balco raid (inadmissable as it was) shed a lot of light on our little heroes who were untouchable with testing, but apparently BIG TIME users according to order sheets...

alz wrote:

APRTW wrote:

I dont think they can flush the steroids out of their systems on demand.  If they could testing for it would be pointless.

I've seen people advertising cleaners that will "remove all traces of anabolic roids" within 3 days...

I'm trying to remember the source, but when Braun was busted for crazy test levels, someone was cracking up about it. I think he even went so far as to call Braun an idiot because you have to juice up the DAY OF THE TEST to get caught with any type of high-end designer juice. It returns your T-levels to normal within 24 hours, and is otherwise untraceable.... I'm hunting that source down.

Minimal clean time I found for any listed Steroid on Steroid.com was 1-3 days for the TESTASERONE SUSPENSION. The Clear and The Clean were not listed, but my understanding from following the Balco shit was the dosage was 2 drops under the tongue, and you were roided for then next 4-8 hours. Downtime of another 16-20 hours and it could not be found or proven. Which was why there was such a push for a governmental inquiry because the Balco raid (inadmissable as it was) shed a lot of light on our little heroes who were untouchable with testing, but apparently BIG TIME users according to order sheets...

I agree that the testing program isnt going to be able to stop the designer steroids and HGH.  Im not sure how to fix that.  Still there is no reason not to take the test when Fedex is open.  It isnt going to make a difference.

I will say that I was (until today) unaware that Brauns T-Level was over double any previous FAILED test. That raises some eyebrows to me. I have a difficult time imagining that someone with Braun's track record of cleanliness all of the sudden morphed into "Ken Caminiti partying with Jose Canseco" and then got tested....

Sadly I'll never know the answer to the one question that would drive my opinion. Did he use PED's? The truth is that this isn't like Bonds (who we know did). He's swearing he did nothing of the sort, and pointing to the purity of the sample handling. Is he right? I don't know, every guilty party trying to skate on getting caught throws that same bullshit up there. (Landis anyone?)

/shrug. He'll be playing opening day either way from where things stand today. Nothing else matters to this point.

forsberg_us wrote:

"Although MLB officials would not comment on the record, sources told ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson they are still convinced that the sample tested came from Braun, and that the positive test result was correct. They emphasized that the FedEx package that arrived in the Montreal laboratory was sealed three times with tamper-proof seals -- one on the box, one on a plastic bag inside the box, and again on the vial that contained the urine.

The lab chief, an MLB source told Munson, testified that the urine was not tainted, that it was appropriate for testing, and that it tested positive for testosterone."

"In his appeal, Braun didn't argue evidence of tampering and didn't dispute the science, but argued protocol had not been followed."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2012/story/_/id/7611600/2012-spring-training-ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-says-test-system-failed

I've been an attorney for over 12 years, and I've tried both bench and jury trials and handled at least a dozen arbitrations.  One thing I can say with certainty is that I have never failed to argue a defense for which I had evidentiary support.

If Braun's side had evidence of tampering, they would have argued it.  Same if there had been evidence that the testing was flawed, that the results were somehow flawed, that the sample wasn't his or any other available defense.  I'm guessing Braun's attorneys are a lot smarter and a lot more experienced than I am, and everything I've read suggests that Braun's side raised one argument--that the sample wasn't delivered correctly to FedEx.

I'm not saying Braun shouldn't have prevailed--if the collector screwed up, then shame on him--but I do believe that the absence of any other defense speaks volumes as to what really happened.

Of course but just because there isnt evidence doesnt mean it didnt happen.  One thing Braun's attorney's could prove was that the protocal wasnt followed and MLB couldnt deny that. 

I am not an attorney but I assume in arbitrations there is alot less BS.  There is no jury to impress.  Throwing shit at a wall and hoping something sticks isnt going to work as well.  For Braun to come in there and say the sample was tainted or that the tamper proof container was repackaged wouldnt have held as much weight as saying something they can prove happend. 

MLB has rotten egg on its face once again.  There first mistake was not following protocal and there second was leaking the info.  I wonder how many times this happens and nobody knows?  Maybe that is why someone weaked the story.

Last edited by APRTW (2/24/2012 6:38 pm)

"I just watched Braun's interview.  He is either pathological or innocent."

I don't give too much weight to Braun's comments. These guys are used to being in front of cameras and can be pretty good actors. Rafael Palmeiro was convincing when he testified before Congress.
It's been reported the sample remained sealed, and was not tainted due to the delay in delivery. What makes me give pause is Braun submitted so many clean samples, and then boom, he tests off the charts. Either he's been masking an extraordinary amount of juice, or the dirty test was somehow flawed.
The composition of the panel still astounds me. Instead of a union stooge and a guy from the commissioner's office, why not have two impartial guys and a 3-man independent panel?

Last edited by artie_fufkin (2/24/2012 11:09 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

"I just watched Braun's interview.  He is either pathological or innocent."

I don't give too much weight to Braun's comments. These guys are used to being in front of cameras and can be pretty good actors. Rafael Palmeiro was convincing when he testified before Congress.
It's been reported the sample remained sealed, and was not tainted due to the delay in delivery. What makes me give pause is Braun submitted so many clean samples, and then boom, he tests off the charts. Either he's been masking an extraordinary amount of juice, or the dirty test was somehow flawed.
The composition of the panel still astounds me. Instead of a union stooge and a guy from the commissioner's office, why not have two impartial guys and a 3-man independent panel?

No matter how tamper proof the container was it could still be replaced.  Meaning that you cant tamper with the container but you could remove the sample and put it in a new tamper proof container.  Not saying that is what happend but it could have happend.