It was started in a different thread Windy.  Chad speculated Yadi would be looking for somewhere in the range of 4/$40M.  AP and Tk wouldn't pay it.  I'm sort of on the fence.

The one thing we all seemed to agree is that they don't have an obvious replacement.

Martin is making $7.5M.  He's been pretty terrible the last couple of years.  He showed a little power, but hasn't hit over .250 since 2008.

Napoli's numbers last season were insane.  He didn't catch as much as I would have thought (only 61 games), but you can find a place for someone who hits .320 with 30 HRs.  Makes you wonder what Anaheim was thinking when they decided to trade him.  For Vernon Wells and his ridiculous contract no less.

APRTW wrote:

Russell isnt that far behind Molina.  His career OPS is higher then Molina.  Yadi has stepped up his game the last couple year however he also seems like the type that after signing a large contract could decline.  Still the Cardinals cant move forward if there isnt a plan B.  I am not say it should be Russell Martin.  I would not want that at all.  As awesome as Napoli's season was the first thing I would do to a guy that can hit 30hrs and bat over .300 is get him out of a squating position.

Martin's problem is he's so inconsistent. He'll hit a couple of homers in a game, and then he'll go weeks without one. He had one home run between May 24 and Aug. 2 last season. Martin isn't a bad defensive catcher, according to the Fielding Bible folks. He ranked fifth, behind Wieters, Yadi, Ruiz and Mathis.

I found this item that doesn't bode well for Yadi's long-term prospects, and confirms some of what we discussed during the season:

"After Yadier Molina won the previous four Fielding Bible Awards, Matt Wieters wins his first. And it wasn’t even close in the voting, Wieters 97 to Molina 74. When you look at the numbers, it wasn’t close there either. Prior to 2011, Molina has thrown out 42% of baserunners. On top of that, he has picked off an average of six baserunners per year. In 2011, Yadier dropped to 25% caught stealing and only picked two runners off. Wieters threw out 36% of basestealers in 2011. But it was the pitcher handling department where Wieters really excelled. Nine of his 14 runs saved are estimated for his pitcher handling, while Molina also had a down year in this area, costing the Cardinals six runs."

http://www.fieldingbible.com/the-winners.asp

"But it was the pitcher handling department where Wieters really excelled. Nine of his 14 runs saved are estimated for his pitcher handling, while Molina also had a down year in this area, costing the Cardinals six runs."

How the hell do you measure that?

forsberg_us wrote:

"But it was the pitcher handling department where Wieters really excelled. Nine of his 14 runs saved are estimated for his pitcher handling, while Molina also had a down year in this area, costing the Cardinals six runs."

How the hell do you measure that?

That my opinion when it comes to Molina's value.  Cruz was 4-4 in the games he started behind the plate.

Here's my take on Molina, the big reason why Moneygrubber's contract demands could not be met is because we would be unable to keep the other core players we wanted to keep around. This gave us some salve to the wound, but the trade to losing Moneygrubber was that we would be able to keep Waino and Molina.

Molina asking for 10M/yr isn't out of line with the good catchers in MLB, and I would give him that deal. I initially shit myself when I saw it, but if you look at the contracts of starting catchers, Molina isn't out of line with 4/40.

So I would be unhappy if they didn't sign him, but that's my opinion.

"able to keep Waino and Molina."

Presuming he returns to 2009-10 form, Wainwright's next contract is going to be a barometer for the FO. They're going to have the opportunity to make a popular player a "Cardinal for life" or they're going to say "We won without you in 2011. We'll take our chances ..." In the latter instance, I'll end up owing an apology to Max.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Dropping the head, Glove movement...  What a joke."

In the video of Varitek, it looks like he's wearing an over-sized glove, which to me indicates the pitch was probably a knuckleball thrown by Wakefield.
Some of this analysis is arguable anyway. Most of the umpires these days do a pretty good job of calling balls and strikes as they cross the plate, regardless of glove and head movement by the catcher.
The point is somebody somewhere out there has quantified an erosion of Molina's skills. Given the demands of the position relative to his age, it would be foolish for the Cardinals not to consider it in negotiations for his next contract. And given the way they walked away from Pujols, I would expect them to.

I agree ,drunkingly, that there is some favoritism to players.  I dont know how you judge if it is batter, catcher or pitcher but there is favortism.  Framing pitches is an art.   I wouldnt bet 10 milliion of the clubs payroll on Molinas ability.

don.rob11 wrote:

•"I love the city. I love the fans, I love the park. But it's out of my hands," said Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina to Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch when asked about a new contract (Twitter links). "Whatever they like to do is how it is ... They let Albert [Pujols] go. It's business for the team, too. It's out of my hands." Molina can become a free agent after the season.

...........and this all means ?

This means that Molina is smarter than the former first baseman. Molina isn't going to break off negotiations. He's sending the message to the fans that he wants to stay and he's open to talking about contract terms at any time. Unlike the former first baseman, Molina is willing to work out a deal now, during spring training or during the season. Molina is saying we have 8 months, and surely over 8 months we can make this work if both sides are willing. Molina is saying he's willing, but the other side isn't.  Unlike the former first baseman, Molina doesn't plan on being the bad guy if it doesn't work out.

forsberg_us wrote:

don.rob11 wrote:

•"I love the city. I love the fans, I love the park. But it's out of my hands," said Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina to Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch when asked about a new contract (Twitter links). "Whatever they like to do is how it is ... They let Albert [Pujols] go. It's business for the team, too. It's out of my hands." Molina can become a free agent after the season.

...........and this all means ?

This means that Molina is smarter than the former first baseman. Molina isn't going to break off negotiations. He's sending the message to the fans that he wants to stay and he's open to talking about contract terms at any time. Unlike the former first baseman, Molina is willing to work out a deal now, during spring training or during the season. Molina is saying we have 8 months, and surely over 8 months we can make this work if both sides are willing. Molina is saying he's willing, but the other side isn't.  Unlike the former first baseman, Molina doesn't plan on being the bad guy if it doesn't work out.

All of that, and he's still a little peeved the former first baseman is the former first baseman. Molina's no dummy. You can't catch in the major leagues for seven years if you don't have a brain.

"Glavine and Maddux are really the last two guys I can remember who pitched to a different strike zone than everyone else."

MLB Network recently aired a program that identified the top 40 or 50 most controvesial calls in baseball history (more appropriately, "recorded" baseball history).  One that was near the top wasn't a specific call, but Eric Gregg's handling of a game started by Livan Hernandez in the 1998 playoffs against the Braves.  Hernandez got calls that were a good 6-8 inches off the plate.  It was hysterical, especially since it was against the Braves.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"I agree ,drunkingly, that there is some favoritism to players."

Less so these days, because of QuesTec. Glavine and Maddux are really the last two guys I can remember who pitched to a different strike zone than everyone else.
What I discount these days on an ever increasing basis is the idea, usually proffered by ex-player analysts, that a guy won't get a pitch he hasn't established, or he won't get a call if he throws the ball in the zone but not to the mitt. Some of the hardliners may have hated QuesTec, but it's advanced umpiring to the point where umpires call the zone as its supposed to be called, and is not subject to individual interpretation.

I agree that strikes are increasingly being called more fair.  However star player still get borderline calls.  How can you put a stat on those calls?  Was it Molina behind the plate that got the called stike.  Was it Carp throwing the pitch that made the Ump lean toward calling it a strike.  Maybe it was because the batter wasnt a super star.  I dont think you can put a stat on the human element of the game.