What will disappoint me is if Bonds and Clemens get in under the rationale that they were HofF worthy before they took steroids.
I think eventually all the steroid guys on this list get in, and McGwire does to. Maybe 30 years from now, but he'll get in. 583 is too big a number to ignore. Same deal with Sosa.
I think at this point, 300 wins, 3,000 hits and/or 500 homers absent a steroid admission/positive test/indictment gets you in automatically. That leaves out Schilling, Piazza and Kent on these two lists. Piazza gets in because he's the best offensive catcher of all-time. Schilling will certainly promote his cause, and I think he eventually gets in because he was so good in the post-season. I'm not sure about Kent. The argument will be his power numbers as a second baseman, but I always kind of saw him defensively as a misplaced corner infielder/outfielder. There may be some incongruity there because Piazza wasn't a very good defensive catcher, but Piazza's numbers are just so overwhelming compared to other players who played the position. Kent wasn't even the best second baseman of his era.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (2/14/2012 6:14 pm)

I'm still holding strong to the "If McGwire/Palmiero can't get in, no juicer gets in" line. I don't expect Bonds, Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, Sosa, to get in at all. I don't mind any of them getting in, but if they do get in, there's no reason in the world why McGwire shouldn't be there.

alz wrote:

I'm still holding strong to the "If McGwire/Palmiero can't get in, no juicer gets in" line. I don't expect Bonds, Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, Sosa, to get in at all. I don't mind any of them getting in, but if they do get in, there's no reason in the world why McGwire shouldn't be there.

I know I've written this a zillion times before, but if ham-and-eggers like Jason Grimsley and Manny Alexander were juicing, then there's no way of knowing how pervasive steroid use was.
I've kind of taken a much more libertarian mentality toward the steroid era. If a guy wants to fill his liver with poison and take a few years off his life in exchange for fame and enough money to last the rest of his life and maybe generations beyond, then who's to say he's wrong?
This may have been brought up before here, but there was an interesting documentary that came out a few years ago about steroids. There was a guy, a body-builder or a guy who trained body-builders, who claimed there's no evidence that steroids cause health problems, outside of acne and bad breath. I guess we'll see what becomes of Sosa, McGwire, et al, as they get older, but steroids were prevalent in the NFL at least going back to the '70s. The Steelers supposedly handed them out like Pez. Off the top of my head, none of those guys has met an early demise, except for Mike Webster.

I think everyone on that list is a HOFer even Kent.  He was 7 RBIs way from having 8 100 RBI seasons in a row.  For a second baseman that is big. 


I think you have to let all players in based on their numbers.  Leave steroid usage out of it.  Bonds and Clemens never had a positive test under current testing rules and have denied usage.  McGwire never had a positve test but admitted to use.  Why should McGwire be punished for honesty.  I dont think what a player did before they were suspected of using weighs in at all.  There is to much unknown there.  Also if the rational  that some players used just because of time they played and having power numbers like other players to keep them out of the HOF then there is no stopping.  Bottomline is there are already people who used PED in the HOF and more will be put in.  It cant be helped.  Might as well just let them all in.  Numbers are numbers.

APRTW wrote:

Bonds and Clemens never had a positive test under current testing rules and have denied usage.

Without harping on too much about this, I wanted to clarify something. Bonds was in serious hot water from the Fed's for lying, based on hard concrete failed urine samples they collected from Balco during their search and siezure. Bonds did not get out of those perjury convictions because he was innocent (in the sense that he never used), he got out of them because those damning piss-vials were deemed inadmissable in court due to an illegal search and siezure. The Feds weren't supposed to confiscate everything at Balco, and did.

While that can keep him out of jail, MLB is under no requirement to look the other way when there is hardline proof of his guilt. Clemens? I wanted to say that his trainer still had the syringes, that seems like a pretty simple DNA test to me, and since he's been dealing with a trial, I would assume they have more than just a convict trainer who's "saying otherwise".

Again, whether due process has been followed, privacy rights have been violated, or whatever, that ONLY KEEPS HIM FROM JAIL, and will count for nothing to a Hall of Fame vote. Bonds is guilty as sin, Clemens probably is too.

McGwire never failed an MLB test either.

"IMO, to keep someone out of the HOF they need to have violated MLB rules."

They better get a crow bar and start removing Gaylord Perry's plaque.  He's admitted throwing a spit ball most of his career.

Should Sosa be kept out for using a corked bat?

I'm not looking to start an argument.  Just pointing out that the standard you've set carries a pretty broad brush.

forsberg_us wrote:

"IMO, to keep someone out of the HOF they need to have violated MLB rules."

They better get a crow bar and start removing Gaylord Perry's plaque.  He's admitted throwing a spit ball most of his career.

Should Sosa be kept out for using a corked bat?

I'm not looking to start an argument.  Just pointing out that the standard you've set carries a pretty broad brush.

That has been my stance since this issue came up.  So it is okay for old timers to throw spit balls and scuff the ball up?  Most have admitted it just like some sterod users have admitted there faults.  It is okay for guys to take handfull of greenies but not HGH and it is different to pitch on coke then a PED?  That is a thin line to walk.  If they want to ban proven violators of the now enforced drug testing system I would be okay with that.  To punish retroactively is un-American.


Edit:  I misread your post.  I cant really say what sort of violation should warrant a HOF ban.  At the very least I think you should violate a rule that is currently in place.  That should be an minimum.  From there it is still a muddy subject.

Last edited by APRTW (2/15/2012 3:27 pm)

"Their affiliation to MLB is the only reason they were in the room..."

I also disagree with the government being so involved in baseball's business.  If thy want to investigate the drug aspect of it then fine but they were more interested in the baseball end. 


"PS so it's okay as long as you're finding new and inventive ways to cheat the sport, before they can make a rule about it? "

Steroids were not new.  Baseball allowed it.  I dont think an empolyer should punish a worker for doing something they allowed and promoted to some degree.