Is it too much to ask the bullpen to not suck?

artie_fufkin wrote:

Is it too much to ask the bullpen to not suck?

Shades of 2011, a very good team getting screwed because of a misconfigured bullpen with no closer.  Can we trade Ramus again?

1) Garcia is an ace, even if the Cards have a better ace.

2) reading "One Last Strike" on your recommendation, La Russa makes the point that "great" pitchers know how to get the job done when they don't have their best stuff working.  They don't over throw and they figure out how to get by with what they have.  Tom Seaver made the point that not all outs are the same, and the great pitchers know how and when to step it up to make the big ones.  

3) Didn't watch the game, but with 7 hits and 2 BB it is clear he was not shutting them down, but he put up goose eggs and the bullpen did not.  

4) what's the difference between the bullpen sucking and Garcia not giving up a run . . . when we had a THREE run lead?!?

5) NO.  I had completely forgotten that Hank Heyward did not win.  Nevertheless, go back and look at the games that Garcia did not win, despite having pitched phenomenally, and then we'll pick up the debate whether I am overselling him.  Garcia is a solid 1-2 starter, he is Glavine to Wainwright's Maddux.  

6) If I seem brusque tonight it is a combination of the lack of time and the availability of red wine.  I spent the evening "training" for a job that pays $7.50 per hour, and came home to an email that says my application for a research professorship has passed the first round, and I am to collect letters of reference, and "Please let us know how much time you would need to do so."  So, I live in strange world these days.

Last edited by Max (4/15/2013 1:40 am)

The Cardinals may end up winning this game. I called Busch Stadium yesterday after I spotted Braun using an illegal bat. So MLB is going to review the tape and may end up assessing the Brewers a 2-run penalty that will result in a 3-2 Cardinals' victory.

artie_fufkin wrote:

The Cardinals may end up winning this game. I called Busch Stadium yesterday after I spotted Braun using an illegal bat. So MLB is going to review the tape and may end up assessing the Brewers a 2-run penalty that will result in a 3-2 Cardinals' victory.

You didn't have to go that far afield.  All one of us needed to do was call MLB and point out that the umpire blew the call at home plate involving Craig.  Turns out that was a pretty big missed call.

forsberg_us wrote:

"1) Garcia is an ace, even if the Cards have a better ace."

Then we're using a different definition.  IMO, a top of the rotation pitcher has to not only pitch well, but he must do so deep into ball games.  Garcia has never shown a consistent ability to do that.  Up to this point in his career he's been a 6 inning pitcher.  He's pitched into the 7th inning in only 29 of 80 starts (36%).  In contrast, in his last 3 seasons, Wainwright has pitched into the 7th inning in 61 of 99 starts (62%).  Ideally, Garcia is a #3 starter. 

Good luck with the research position.

You don't even have to go that far. I know winning isn't as important as accumulating statistics in new age baseball, but the most games Garcia has won in a season is 13. Even Kerry Wood won 14 once.
 

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

Wait, they bunted with Wiggingon?

No, of course not.  But if they had "saved that bullet", and not had Mr. .167 swing away, they could have used Garcia to bunt Descalso to 2nd, and still had their ace on the mound for the 8th.

Garcia has been screwed so badly and so often by the pen that it is a wonder it has not yet permanently affected his attitude.  With even just average support from the pen and offense in '10 he would have been a run away favorite for RoY.  Instead, his W-L stood in sharp contrast to his other stats and the RoY electors were not going to go all Felix Hernandez on Garcia when they had the new Hank Aaron to annoint in Atlanta.

Max, I know you've got a soft spot in your heart for Garcia, but let's not oversell the guy. He's hardly the Cardinals' ace. And if you'd have watched the game you'd have seen that Garcia spent a good part of the afternoon with runners on base. The defense turned 3-4 double plays behind him. Credit Garcia for getting ground balls when he needed them, but it wasn't like he was dominating Brewers hitters. The game wasn't lost because Matheny pulled Garcia, it was lost because the bullpen sucked after Garcia was pulled. 

BTW- not to let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but you know Heyward wasn't ROY, don't you?  Posey won the award in 2010. Garcia finished 3rd. 

Turning back to the game, isn't it time that maybe Mujica get a little more "high leverage opportunities?"  He's been consistently the best guy down there. Move Boggs back to the 8th and see if Rosenthal can handle the 7th. 

id the cards are up in the 7th and go rosenthal, boggs, mujica or really any combo of those guys i think they will end up being okay most of the time.  I agree the roles should be adjusted but i think those 3 guys will soon or later find a groove.  Idk what matheny should do in extra innings.  It has been a sore splt for several years, extra inning games.  Idk the record but it seem the cards always come out on the shorg end.  Before it was meccellan as the angle of death.  Now salas is playing that role.  
 

artie_fufkin wrote:

Oh, and Matt Adams needs to play more. 

is there any chance tavares can play center?   Him in center, craig in right and adams at first is very interesting.
 

Adams will be playing every day for someone after the Cardinals trade him at some point in the next few months. Or next season. 

tkihshbt wrote:

Adams will be playing every day for someone after the Cardinals trade him at some point in the next few months. Or next season. 

they better get good return.  He seems like the real deal.

forsberg_us wrote:

APIAD wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

Adams will be playing every day for someone after the Cardinals trade him at some point in the next few months. Or next season. 

they better get good return.  He seems like the real deal.

Centerpiece of a deal for Tulowitzki?

I am starting to like this idea more and more.  If tulowitzki was at short i would be more comfortable seeing a lighter hitting third baseman like carp.  I think he will hit well in the majors but a team has to have a balance of power and contact hitters.  If the pulled this trade off thd only position they would have to worry about is possibly center.  I dont see jay as a lomg term solution.  This would be a nice 2014 lineup and gives them the ablity to trade freese.

Cf jay
Rf tavaez
Lf hollidat
Ss tulo
1b craig
C molina
2b wong
3b carp 
 

As long as we are speculating, a good fit for this year's "Rasmus trade" would be Freese.  I agree that at some point they might want to upgrade on Jay, and he might be tradable if they had the replacement.

Wasn't Carpenter supposed to be the guy who was going to be converted into a 2B this year?