- Max
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Re: As a church going Christian
artie_fufkin wrote:
"This isn't society or even the Cardinals organization promoting Christianity."
They are, Fors. This event obviously doesn't go forward without DeWitt's approval, and they've been advertising it on TV during the games.
As TK suggested, the DeWitts may be doing nothing more than playing to a portion of their audience to get them to buy tickets, t-shirts and hot dogs, but there's at least tacit if not outright sponsorship of this event.
And what's more, even if it is purely crass commercial interest and not a bona fide attempt to promote Christianty, that is exactly what I am concerned about with the DeWitt ownership group. They bought the Cardinals and own it outright, but the value of the brand name--Musial, Brock, Gibson, Smith, etc--greatly predates them. Yes, the dollar value of the franchise is much higher now than when they bought it, but they could yet do a lot of damage to the value of the brand name.
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Re: As a church going Christian
The Santa Claus episode is a classic. A guy dressed as Santa with a sack full of gift certificates is supposed to arrive by helicopter at an upscale mall that's putting the mall with Al's shoe store out of business, so Al doesn't get the bonus he expects and the Bundys have to go without Christmas presents. Except Santa falls out of the helicopter on the way to the mall and lands on the Bundys' back porch. The Bundys take the gift ceritificates, go to the mall and buy themselves gifts. Happily ever after, right?
The other great episode from the first year is when Al and Peg mistakenly get a letter addressed to Steve and Marcie and take their place as contestants on a Newlywed Game-type of show where they have to subject each other to torture-type challenges to win the prizes. The best part is when Peg lets Al get between a mattress and a box spring. The challenge is how many obese women Peg will let sit on top of the mattress before she lets Al quit. After about a dozen fat chicks are on top of the mattress, the game show host - David Leisure in an excellently cast role - asks Al how he's doing, and he responds "I can taste my spleen!!!"One episode that stands out for me is the one in Season 1 or 2 when Al got a tiny inheritance check and took the family to dinner. After a classic feeding frenzy scene, Bud and Kelly got hold of the check and bolted for the Tears 'n Vomit concert, leaving Al and Peggy with no way to pay for the meal.
Another episode had a scene where Peg came home from a yard sale with a mounted boar's head, leading to this exchange:
[Peg] Hi, honey.
[Al] Hi, pookie. What you got there?
[Peg] It's a boar's head.
[Al} I know, but what's behind your back?
[Kelly] No, I saw it, daddy. It is a boar's head.
[Al] Rest, honey. Peg, why did you buy a boar's head?
[Peg] Well, if you must know, it aroused me. Glassy eyes, stuffing for brains, nothing below the neck. Nail it to a toilet bowl, it could be you.
[Al] No, it couldn't, 'cause unlike me, someone loved him enough to put a bullet in his head.Excellent. My all-time favorite line in the series is when Steve is lecturing Al about nutrition after Al admits he only eats fast food from a drive-through.
Steve: You can't spend the rest of your life ordering food from a clown's mouth.
Al: Sure I can ... (getting in Peg's face) ... COOK ME SOME FOOD!!!
Glad to see something productive came from this thread. :-)
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Thread Starter- Max
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Re: As a church going Christian
"Pujols was iritating in his Christianity, but he was mostly fairly private."
It may have seemed that way outside of St. Louis, but in St. Louis he and Didi either owned or mostly owned a Christian radio station and Pujols was very vocal and public in his faith. He was a prominent part of the Christian family days, did interviews for the 700 Club and had a very public appearance at a Glenn Beck rally.
Pujols and Warner shared a lot of similarities. Not that that's a bad thing.Warner's Christianity, like Tebow's, was impossible to miss, no matter where one lived. Pujols's was private enough that it was not obvious outside of St. Louis until he made statements about God's plan vis-a-vis his batting average. And FWIW, none of those guys ever drew a cross on the field of play.
Tebow always wore bible verses on his eye black. And he certainly wasn't the first or last to do so.
Nobody else had to walk on those eyelids. To me that is no different than wearing a cross/crucifix.
Last edited by Max (6/28/2013 11:06 pm)
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Thread Starter- forsberg_us
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Re: As a church going Christian
Going back to the issue of the cross (not that the Married with Children discussion isn't fun), the story indicates that the cross is only there at times, meaning it's likely a few pitchers who either did it themselves, asked for it, or who the groundskeepers knew wouldn't mind. If a particular pitcher wants to scribble something in the dirt, that's his business.
I remember a few years back we had a pitcher (maybe PJ Walters), who had a child die and would scribble the child's initials in the dirt. Should he have been told not to do that?
Remember back when Josh Hancock died in the car accident. The Cardinals hung his uniform number and initials in the bullpen. What if that offended someone from the organization M.A.D.D.? Should the Cardinals have taken it down?
This isn't society or even the Cardinals organization promoting Christianity. It's one player's display of his Christian faith in his "office" for that particular night. I think someone really has to be looking to be offended to be offended by something like this.That's an argument that has some merit, but where it falls down in my mind, Fors, is that the opposing pitcher needs to take the mound, too, and religion is a touchy subject, touchy enough to spark wars.
The opposing pitcher is a "visitor" on the home pitcher's mound.
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Re: As a church going Christian
Warner's Christianity, like Tebow's, was impossible to miss, no matter where one lived. Pujols's was private enough that it was not obvious outside of St. Louis until he made statements about God's plan vis-a-vis his batting average. And FWIW, none of those guys ever drew a cross on the field of play.
Tebow always wore bible verses on his eye black. And he certainly wasn't the first or last to do so.
Nobody else had to walk on those eyelids. To me that is no different than wearing a cross/crucifix.
The person who complained about the cross on the mound doesn't get to step on the field. It was a fan who bitched, not an opposing player.
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Re: As a church going Christian
Tebow always wore bible verses on his eye black. And he certainly wasn't the first or last to do so.
Nobody else had to walk on those eyelids. To me that is no different than wearing a cross/crucifix.
The person who complained about the cross on the mound doesn't get to step on the field. It was a fan who bitched, not an opposing player.
Well, we don't know for sure the chain of events. But I do know this, it is a lot harder to be a Jew or a Muslim in our society to stand up and say, "hey, I don't appreciate the cross on the mound" than it is for a conscientious Christian to step up and say, "hey, there are non-Christians who might need to step on that mound, and they might be disturbed by the cross."
Last edited by Max (6/28/2013 11:18 pm)
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Thread Starter- forsberg_us
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Re: As a church going Christian
"But the problem with that math is that when you are the minority, you are ducking you head and getting on with it a lot more often than is the majority. That is why the basic test of freedom in modern nations is in how they respect the rights of the minority."
Since when does "respecting the rights of the minority" equate to suppressing the rights of the majority?
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Re: As a church going Christian
Going back to the issue of the cross (not that the Married with Children discussion isn't fun), the story indicates that the cross is only there at times, meaning it's likely a few pitchers who either did it themselves, asked for it, or who the groundskeepers knew wouldn't mind. If a particular pitcher wants to scribble something in the dirt, that's his business.
I remember a few years back we had a pitcher (maybe PJ Walters), who had a child die and would scribble the child's initials in the dirt. Should he have been told not to do that?
Remember back when Josh Hancock died in the car accident. The Cardinals hung his uniform number and initials in the bullpen. What if that offended someone from the organization M.A.D.D.? Should the Cardinals have taken it down?
This isn't society or even the Cardinals organization promoting Christianity. It's one player's display of his Christian faith in his "office" for that particular night. I think someone really has to be looking to be offended to be offended by something like this.That's an argument that has some merit, but where it falls down in my mind, Fors, is that the opposing pitcher needs to take the mound, too, and religion is a touchy subject, touchy enough to spark wars.
The opposing pitcher is a "visitor" on the home pitcher's mound.
So what? How do you treat the visitors in your home? As an ahteist do make them listen to a treatise on the non-existence of God?
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Thread Starter- Max
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Re: As a church going Christian
"But the problem with that math is that when you are the minority, you are ducking you head and getting on with it a lot more often than is the majority. That is why the basic test of freedom in modern nations is in how they respect the rights of the minority."
Since when does "respecting the rights of the minority" equate to suppressing the rights of the majority?
Why do we ban prayer in public schools, Fors?
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Thread Starter- forsberg_us
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Re: As a church going Christian
That's an argument that has some merit, but where it falls down in my mind, Fors, is that the opposing pitcher needs to take the mound, too, and religion is a touchy subject, touchy enough to spark wars.
The opposing pitcher is a "visitor" on the home pitcher's mound.
So what? How do you treat the visitors in your home? As an ahteist do make them listen to a treatise on the non-existence of God?
No, but if they don't like the decorations they can find the door and get the fuck out.
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Re: As a church going Christian
The opposing pitcher is a "visitor" on the home pitcher's mound.
So what? How do you treat the visitors in your home? As an ahteist do make them listen to a treatise on the non-existence of God?
No, but if they don't like the decorations they can find the door and get the fuck out.
Does their job require that they come to your house and walk on a cross??
Last edited by Max (6/28/2013 11:26 pm)
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Re: As a church going Christian
"But the problem with that math is that when you are the minority, you are ducking you head and getting on with it a lot more often than is the majority. That is why the basic test of freedom in modern nations is in how they respect the rights of the minority."
Since when does "respecting the rights of the minority" equate to suppressing the rights of the majority?Why do we ban prayer in public schools, Fors?
Because a misguided group of judges interpreted the First Amendment to require a separation of church and state, a concept found nowhere in the actual text of the Constitution.
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Re: As a church going Christian
"But the problem with that math is that when you are the minority, you are ducking you head and getting on with it a lot more often than is the majority. That is why the basic test of freedom in modern nations is in how they respect the rights of the minority."
Since when does "respecting the rights of the minority" equate to suppressing the rights of the majority?Why do we ban prayer in public schools, Fors?
Because a misguided group of judges interpreted the First Amendment to require a separation of church and state, a concept found nowhere in the actual text of the Constitution.
Correct, the phrase "separation of church and state" and its association with the First Amendment came from Thomas Jefferson. Based upon that why the fuck should we think the Founding Fathers thought along those lines?
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So what? How do you treat the visitors in your home? As an ahteist do make them listen to a treatise on the non-existence of God?
No, but if they don't like the decorations they can find the door and get the fuck out.
Does their job require that they come to your house and walk on a cross??
For many people their job requires that the come to my house and let my dog sniff them until he gets used to them. If they don't like it, they better either deal with it or send someone else.
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Why do we ban prayer in public schools, Fors?
Because a misguided group of judges interpreted the First Amendment to require a separation of church and state, a concept found nowhere in the actual text of the Constitution.
Correct, the phrase "separation of church and state" and its association with the First Amendment came from Thomas Jefferson. Based upon that why the fuck should we think the Founding Fathers thought along those lines?
I don't know, maybe because when those Founding Fathers, including Jefferson, were alive and running the country all of the things now interpreted as being prohibited by the Constitution were permitted.
When Jefferson was President, was school led prayer unconstitutional?
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Re: As a church going Christian
No, but if they don't like the decorations they can find the door and get the fuck out.Does their job require that they come to your house and walk on a cross??
For many people their job requires that the come to my house and let my dog sniff them until he gets used to them. If they don't like it, they better either deal with it or send someone else.
Do you have any Jews or Muslims who have to walk on a cross?
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Thread Starter- Max
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Re: As a church going Christian
Because a misguided group of judges interpreted the First Amendment to require a separation of church and state, a concept found nowhere in the actual text of the Constitution.Correct, the phrase "separation of church and state" and its association with the First Amendment came from Thomas Jefferson. Based upon that why the fuck should we think the Founding Fathers thought along those lines?
I don't know, maybe because when those Founding Fathers, including Jefferson, were alive and running the country all of the things now interpreted as being prohibited by the Constitution were permitted.
When Jefferson was President, was school led prayer unconstitutional?
Good point. Slavery was still legal and women could not vote. My recollection is that they interpreted their document to be a roadmap toward a society that could reach the ideals in the Declaration of Independence.
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Thread Starter- forsberg_us
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Re: As a church going Christian
Does their job require that they come to your house and walk on a cross??
For many people their job requires that the come to my house and let my dog sniff them until he gets used to them. If they don't like it, they better either deal with it or send someone else.
Do you have any Jews or Muslims who have to walk on a cross?
Don't know, don't care.
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Re: As a church going Christian
Correct, the phrase "separation of church and state" and its association with the First Amendment came from Thomas Jefferson. Based upon that why the fuck should we think the Founding Fathers thought along those lines?
I don't know, maybe because when those Founding Fathers, including Jefferson, were alive and running the country all of the things now interpreted as being prohibited by the Constitution were permitted.
When Jefferson was President, was school led prayer unconstitutional?Good point. Slavery was still legal and women could not vote. My recollection is that they interpreted their document to be a roadmap toward a society that could reach the ideals in the Declaration of Independence.
Wow is that argument flawed. Last time I checked the Constitution was amended to change those things. They didn't come about by judicial fiat. That was the way the document was supposed to work
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Re: As a church going Christian
For many people their job requires that the come to my house and let my dog sniff them until he gets used to them. If they don't like it, they better either deal with it or send someone else.Do you have any Jews or Muslims who have to walk on a cross?
Don't know, don't care.
Well, you've made your argument plain and I can't ask for more than that.
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Thread Starter- Max
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Re: As a church going Christian
I don't know, maybe because when those Founding Fathers, including Jefferson, were alive and running the country all of the things now interpreted as being prohibited by the Constitution were permitted.
When Jefferson was President, was school led prayer unconstitutional?Good point. Slavery was still legal and women could not vote. My recollection is that they interpreted their document to be a roadmap toward a society that could reach the ideals in the Declaration of Independence.
Wow is that argument flawed. Last time I checked the Constitution was amended to change those things. They didn't come about by judicial fiat. That was the way the document was supposed to work
So having a Supreme Court to interpret the meaning of each amendment is flawed?
Great, let's go straight to #2: does it mean that a person must be part of a well-organized militia to bear arms, or does it mean that the right of the people to own nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles shall not be infringed?
Last edited by Max (6/28/2013 11:56 pm)
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Re: As a church going Christian
Do you have any Jews or Muslims who have to walk on a cross?
Don't know, don't care.
Well, you've made your argument plain and I can't ask for more than that.
Let me ask you a question Max. You're at your kid's ball game and after the game you invite a bunch of people over for BBQ and drinks. A parent of one of the kids decides to come to your house, but then lectures you on the evils of drinking and eating meat. Do you stop the festivities and run to the store for tofu dogs, or do you show her the door?
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Re: As a church going Christian
Don't know, don't care.
Well, you've made your argument plain and I can't ask for more than that.
Let me ask you a question Max. You're at your kid's ball game and after the game you invite a bunch of people over for BBQ and drinks. A parent of one of the kids decides to come to your house, but then lectures you on the evils of drinking and eating meat. Do you stop the festivities and run to the store for tofu dogs, or do you show her the door?
Not germaine, Fors. It is a common problem with your arguments.
It was not germaine to my comment about the ups and downs of the rookie pitchers to ask which was damaged. I had not alleged that any had.
It was not germaine to my argument that payroll could go up to insist that I identify where it go. I alleged that it could go up, and indeed it did go up by the amounts I guesstimated, in the time frame I guestimmated.
It is not germaine to a discussion of the appropriate display of religious symbols in the workplace to ask what I would say to a vegetarian guest who showed up for a BBQ at my house.
Last edited by Max (6/29/2013 12:08 am)
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Thread Starter- forsberg_us
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Re: As a church going Christian
Good point. Slavery was still legal and women could not vote. My recollection is that they interpreted their document to be a roadmap toward a society that could reach the ideals in the Declaration of Independence.
Wow is that argument flawed. Last time I checked the Constitution was amended to change those things. They didn't come about by judicial fiat. That was the way the document was supposed to work
So having a Supreme Court to interpret the meaning of each amendment is flawed?
Great, let's go straight to #2: does it mean that a person must be part of a well-organized militia to bear arms, or does it mean that the right of the people to own nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles shall not be infringed?
When it makes up things that don't exist, yes.
#2 is easy. It doesn't say you have to be part of militia to keep weapons. It says that "people" have the right to keep arms because it can never be known when those people may have to organize to protect the security of the country.
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Well, you've made your argument plain and I can't ask for more than that.
Let me ask you a question Max. You're at your kid's ball game and after the game you invite a bunch of people over for BBQ and drinks. A parent of one of the kids decides to come to your house, but then lectures you on the evils of drinking and eating meat. Do you stop the festivities and run to the store for tofu dogs, or do you show her the door?
Not germaine, Fors. It is a common problem with your arguments.
It was not germaine to my comment about the ups and downs of the rookie pitchers to ask which was damaged. I had not alleged that any had.
It was not germaine to my argument that payroll could go up to insist that I identify where it go. I alleged that it could go up, and indeed it did go up by the amounts I guesstimated, in the time frame I guestimmated.
It is not germaine to a discussion of the appropriate display of religious symbols in the workplace to ask what I would say to a vegetarian guest who showed up for a BBQ at my house.
Whatever Max. Bottom line, if you're that offended by it, choose a new team. If Adam Wainwright wants to scratch a cross in the back of the mound, it isn't going to bother me in the slightest.
Maybe you can start rooting for the Angels. :-)