Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Holy crap....Max is Bryan Burwell

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bryan-burwell/article_0c441c96-8400-57d6-afac-c6b7a0e65d88.html

Dammit.  My secret identity is out.  And you all thought my passion about racism in America was just the whining of a liberal white suburbanite when in fact I've been fighting for my people!

Rec

"Having just seen HP 7, pt. 1 this past weekend"

What did you think of it?

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

None of this bodes well.

Like signing Lance Berkman to play the outfield???

If the Pillsbury Dough Boy is a harbinger of a Pujols trade, I'll drive to St. Louis and bludgeon DeWitt with the blunt end of a saxophone.

And another thing is kind of funny, that is, Moz and DeWitt suddenly being on-board with splashing out $20 million on free agents for this season, alone, after 4 years of hearing how payroll needed to stay down in the low to mid 90's. 

IF, DeWitt lets Pujols walk, the problem with him ever cultivating any sympathy along the lines of "we tried, but Pujols was too greedy" is that they have already have left too many tracks that they had no serious optimism that they were going to sign him, even before their first meeting. 

Seriously, if Lozano starts the negotiations at $350 million for 10 years, he would only be asking for a figure that is probably very close to what Pujols could get elsewhere without any negotiating at all.

"Seriously, if Lozano starts the negotiations at $350 million for 10 years, he would only be asking for a figure that is probably very close to what Pujols could get elsewhere without any negotiating at all."

He can only get that kind of dough from about seven teams, the two most likely of which are out of the mix because they're hooked to first basemen for long-term deals. The Phillies are committed to Ryan Howard. That pretty much leaves the Mets, the Angels, the Dodgers and the Cubs.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Seriously, if Lozano starts the negotiations at $350 million for 10 years, he would only be asking for a figure that is probably very close to what Pujols could get elsewhere without any negotiating at all."

He can only get that kind of dough from about seven teams, the two most likely of which are out of the mix because they're hooked to first basemen for long-term deals. The Phillies are committed to Ryan Howard. That pretty much leaves the Mets, the Angels, the Dodgers and the Cubs.

I have said already that it is my belief that if Pujols hits the market, everybody becomes involved.  Furthermore, I believe that both the Yankees and Red Sox have pockets that are effectively limitless in their depth, and the only thing controlling their profligacy is their concern that if the truth were known, the public would pressure MLB for reforms that would cut into their enormous advantages. 

What would be fair to both Pujols and the Cardinals is something that guarantees Pujols the highest AAV ever, say about $35 million for 4-5 years, after which a series of heavily conditioned option years could continue to put him in a Cardinals uniform for another 4-5 years.

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Seriously, if Lozano starts the negotiations at $350 million for 10 years, he would only be asking for a figure that is probably very close to what Pujols could get elsewhere without any negotiating at all."

He can only get that kind of dough from about seven teams, the two most likely of which are out of the mix because they're hooked to first basemen for long-term deals. The Phillies are committed to Ryan Howard. That pretty much leaves the Mets, the Angels, the Dodgers and the Cubs.

I have said already that it is my belief that if Pujols hits the market, everybody becomes involved.  Furthermore, I believe that both the Yankees and Red Sox have pockets that are effectively limitless in their depth, and the only thing controlling their profligacy is their concern that if the truth were known, the public would pressure MLB for reforms that would cut into their enormous advantages. 

What would be fair to both Pujols and the Cardinals is something that guarantees Pujols the highest AAV ever, say about $35 million for 4-5 years, after which a series of heavily conditioned option years could continue to put him in a Cardinals uniform for another 4-5 years.

Keep in mind that free agency is a 2 way street--the player doesn't necessarily go to the highest bidder.

Even if you're correct that everyone becomes involved in bidding for Pujols (for the record, I disagree), do you really think Pujols is going to accept an offer from San Diego, even if they offer $350M/10 years, but aren't willing to commit to a payroll that would make the team competetive?

Other than the Cardinals and the 4 teams mentioned above, I think the only other team that could make a serious offer is Seattle.  There's a lot of Microsoft and Japanese money in that market and at times, they've gone off the charts with offers to free agents.  But I suspect that's another case of a team that wouldn't commit the additional resources needed to be competetive.

By the way, did anybody else read that bit about Derek Jeter being among the top 3 Yankees franchise players of all time?  I was wondering if he is even in the top 5 or 10: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle leap out.  I am sure we could think of a few others, too.

"the only other team that could make a serious offer is Seattle.  There's a lot of Microsoft and Japanese money in that market and at times, they've gone off the charts with offers to free agents.  But I suspect that's another case of a team that wouldn't commit the additional resources needed to be competetive."

Good points. Agree with all of it.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Mags wrote:

Max wrote:

By the way, did anybody else read that bit about Derek Jeter being among the top 3 Yankees franchise players of all time?  I was wondering if he is even in the top 5 or 10: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle leap out.  I am sure we could think of a few others, too.

Bill Dickey, Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, Roger Maris

It's amazing with all that history they've never had a 3,000 hits guy or a 300 wins guy. I guess you could make an argument for Clemens since he won his 300th game in a Yankees' uniform, but he won most of his games with the Red Sox.

As I was trying to think of names, I was amazed at how few pitchers came to mind.  They've had a lot of them who were very good for a short period of time but not for extended periods and many of their good pitchers, like Vic Raschi and Allie Reynolds, were basically "money ballplayers" -- but so were many of their position players.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Mags wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

It's amazing with all that history they've never had a 3,000 hits guy or a 300 wins guy. I guess you could make an argument for Clemens since he won his 300th game in a Yankees' uniform, but he won most of his games with the Red Sox.

As I was trying to think of names, I was amazed at how few pitchers came to mind.  They've had a lot of them who were very good for a short period of time but not for extended periods and many of their good pitchers, like Vic Raschi and Allie Reynolds, were basically "money ballplayers" -- but so were many of their position players.

Red Ruffing? Was Waite Hoyt a Yankee for most of his career? You'd probably have to throw Andy Pettitte on that list, too, though ironically I don't think he's ever been the ace of that staff at any point.

Ruffing & Hoyt, yes.  Hoyt played with several teams but his best years were with the Yankees and I think he played more seasons with them.

Speaking of ironies, unless I'm missing something that I should never miss, the Cards haven't had a 300 game winner either (except for Grover Alexander, who was only with the Cards for about 3 seasons).  It's interesting, and in my opinion revealing, that the two teams that have won the most World Series have neither had a 300 game winner for most of his career.

"Speaking of ironies, unless I'm missing something that I should never miss, the Cards haven't had a 300 game winner either (except for Grover Alexander, who was only with the Cards for about 3 seasons).  It's interesting, and in my opinion revealing, that the two teams that have won the most World Series have neither had a 300 game winner for most of his career."

Carlton won 300, but 99 percent of the world thinks of him as a Phillie.
Here's the list, anyway:

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stats/historical/player_stats.jsp?c_id=stl&baseballScope=SL4&teamPosCode=all&statType=2&sitSplit=&venueID=&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0&Submit=Submit&timeSubFrame=0&&sortByStat=W

BTW, that's a great link.  For me, it's very sad to go to the second page and see a whole slew of names that were supposed to be the next Ace and wound up with less than 50 wins for the Cards.