tkihshbt wrote:

to Seattle for Class A pitcher Mikael Cleto.

Thanks for the update, TK.

Well, they really did a great job of talking down his value.  I think I'm one of the few here who's glad to see Ryan go based not only on what fors has reported but also what I've seen on the field.  But TLR's need rub another's face in the dirt when they dare to piss him off is another clear example of his putting his own image ahead of the best interests of the organization.

And I'm not unaware that Moz made public comments that made it clear they had to dump Ryan.  But I suspect a lot of that is simply giving TLR the support he expects.

"Power arm that regularly hits the high 90s and has touched 100. Has control issues."

Great. The Cardinals traded King Cornholio for Nuke LaLoosh.

Max wrote:

On the other hand, I would chalk it up to a disciplinarian who insists that his law is final, which is almost admirable in these days of stars who are more powerful than their manager/coach.

You're starting to sound like an aging academic who takes his job seriously.

All kidding aside, I agree with you 100% and that was one of the things I liked about TLR when he first came to the Cards.  And you may recall, although I think you were on the DL at the time, that I defended TLR for sitting Ryan down in the middle of a game when he swung and flied out on a 3-0 pitch in one of the first games he played in.

It just seems to make that LaRussa gets more on more open about the disciplinary action he takes and the conflicts he has with players.  I recall how very surprised I was to learn in the late 70's that Dick Williams, whom I had seen on t.v. many times and followed pretty regularly, had the reputation for being a strict disciplinarian.  On t.v. and in the interviews I saw, he always seemed to have a very compassionate feeling toward his players and kept any conflicts he had within the club house.  Even though the Oakland team was loaded with guys who liked to shoot off their mouths about each other and Williams too.

Williams did become more open in his criticisms in his last few years and that may be what is happening with LaRussa.  But Williams was definitely on his way down as a manager by that time.

Last edited by Mags (12/12/2010 9:23 pm)

Ryan was apparently traded for a bag of salted peanuts ($3.95 retail) an extra mulligan at a golfing contest to be named at a later date, a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 and nudes of Sharon Stone. Oh and some dude apparently named "Pitching Prospect".

I think Moz did pretty well here.

Max wrote:

I think you're being sarcastic.  But seriously, I am surprised at how little interest they had in this guy after they spent literally months shouting to anyone who would listen that he didn't get along with his manager or clubhouse veterans and had to be traded.

I think you are also being sarcastic, as was I. It seems counter-productive to trash someone on the team, regardless of actual feelings about him or his situation.

For example.

1) You are shopping a great defensive shortstop coming off a down year at the plate

-or-

2) You are shopping a great defensive shortstop who's a clubhouse distration, derisive, won't allow for veterans to lead, can't get along with anyone, and is coming off a terrible year at the plate.

As a GM of another team, I could be interested in the first guy depending on the price, but you'd almost need to pay me to take door #2....

tkihshbt wrote:

Here's the excellent Joe Posnanski's take on the situation. Beware: if you're a La Russa honk, you're going to find this article to be as offensive as pornography.

OK, not that much. But he does believe that La Russa wields too much power and they are trying to cobble together another winner so Tone can ride off into the sunset.

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/12/13/the-expendable-brendan-ryan/#more-6313

I think you are reading into that piece what you want to hear, to some extent.  He writes: "it does not feel like that Cardinals are building a team as much as it feels like they are trying to cobble together one more winner for Tony La Russa." Doesn't write anything about La Russa having too much power, or else I missed it.  And frankly, I think Moz and Luhnow could combine on a strong rebuttal of the first point.  Then again, filling holes with 1-2 year deals was the Jocketty way, too.  And above all that, the fact that Pujols remains a $25-30 million question mark could have an impact.

I thought his most insightful writing concerned the deception and self-deception that makes us so human.  This business that Theriot made Ryan expendable spoke volumes about how little Ryan's presence was wanted within the Cardinals organization.  La Russa and some unnamed veterans surely are responsible to large measure.  Only time will tell who wisdom was wise, but in the meantime we can all learn something about the way people disguise their true feelings and true motivations.

Max wrote:

...but in the meantime we can all learn something about the way people disguise their true feelings and true motivations.

Or see further confirmation of what we have previously observed on many, many occasions.

It is the off season and I think we all get giddy with roster moves or at least the thought of meaningful roster moves.  But yeah, I agree with Artie.  This teams isnt any better right now then they were in October.

tkihshbt wrote:

Simmons was one of my all time favorite Cardinals but I always realized he wasn't what a winning team had to have behind the plate.

The 1982 Milwaukee Brewers must have lucked into those 97 wins with Simba. If only he had Grit, Hustle and Determination, they would've been champions.

Sorry if that comes across as mean, Max. It's not personally directed at you, but I get tired of hearing about how the Cardinals couldn't win with Simmons. Bullshit. I wasn't even alive then and I know they could've won with him.

That was Mags who wrote the part about Simmons.
(I can't wait to see how this plays out. As KC would say, pass the popcorn ...)

artie_fufkin wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

Simmons was one of my all time favorite Cardinals but I always realized he wasn't what a winning team had to have behind the plate.

The 1982 Milwaukee Brewers must have lucked into those 97 wins with Simba. If only he had Grit, Hustle and Determination, they would've been champions.

Sorry if that comes across as mean, Max. It's not personally directed at you, but I get tired of hearing about how the Cardinals couldn't win with Simmons. Bullshit. I wasn't even alive then and I know they could've won with him.

That was Mags who wrote the part about Simmons.
(I can't wait to see how this plays out. As KC would say, pass the popcorn ...)

"Whoops. Sorry, Max. This is on you, Mags."

TK, you ignorant slut.  You weren't alive when Bill Murray uttered those words, either, and I won't dignify your post with a response, other than to say your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.  I fart in your general direction.

From FB: even Matt Leach pulls few punches regarding the Cleto trade.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101213&content_id=16314098&vkey=news_stl&c_id=stl&partnerId=rss_stl

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

From FB: even Matt Leach pulls few punches regarding the Cleto trade.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101213&content_id=16314098&vkey=news_stl&c_id=stl&partnerId=rss_stl

Way to be insightful, Pigpen. Anyone on this board could have answered the questions he picked.

Damn, I'm glad I'm not a sports journalist by trade, because all too often the critiques sound like, "I coulda written that."  Which is ironic because the off-the-record Brendan Ryan must be saying, "Theriot?!?  You have to be fucking kidding me.  I can play shortstop better than him with one hand tied behind my back."  Which only goes to show that more times than not it is how you toady up to people in positions of power that determines whether your lucky break is 15 minutes of fame or a career of saying the right thing at the right time.

Oh, and by the way, if you want to save money, they're selling single serving bottles of wine in the newer 1.5 L size.

Last edited by Max (12/14/2010 1:31 am)