forsberg_us wrote:

I understand your point Max, but agree with TK as far as questioning Freese's power.  Even if you back out the month of June, this is a guy who in roughly 210 major league at-bats has 5 HR.  If you assume he starts regularly, he probably gets in the neighborhood of 550 at bats.  At that pace, Freese hits maybe 13-14 HRs.  That's a bit light from the 3B position.

Didnt Freese hit 20HRs in triple A 2 years ago?  Even if he hits 13-14 HRs that would be enough and I dont think that is light.  Maybe I am wrong and I dont have time right now to check but it seems that third base isnt the power position it used to be a few years ago.  I dont think Freese can hit major league pitchers at the 20 HR rate I remember him having in triple A.  I doubt he break 10 if health.

I dont mind the Cardinals spending money and was as sick as anyone about hearing about "dry powder" but I dont like the idea of them being done and this being the team.  I like to see them be able to add someone like Jorge Cantu if he slips threw the cracks.

Max wrote:

José Bautista

Off point, maybe, but did we ever discuss in detail how the hell a guy who for the first six years of a lackluster career couldn't hit water if he fell out of a freakin' boat clubbed 54 homers last season?

Last edited by artie_fufkin (12/15/2010 10:11 pm)

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

José Bautista

Off point, maybe, but did we ever discuss in detail how the hell a guy who for the first six years of a lackluster career couldn't hit water if he fell out of a freakin' boat clubbed 54 homers last season?

The answer is clear.

If that's true, he's going to get creamed by the media.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

I don't want to be Freese's cheerleader, but I will reiterate that I am surprised there is not more excitement about this guy, especially considering the excitement for players who have not performed as well at the major league level, such as Jon Jay and Allen Craig.

I don't know anyone who has expressed "excitement" for Jon Jay other than to say he could be a competent 4th outfielder.

Perhaps the lack of excitement for Freese has something to do with these facts:

- 2 off-field alcohol-related incidents, including a DWI during which the breathalyzer showed Freese's blood alcohol content to be almost 3 times the legal limit.
- After being handed the starting 3B job coming out of spring training 2009, Freese struggles at which time it is revealed that Freese was involved in a single car accident that he didn't report to the team for 2 days (alcohol-related incident #3???) and which resulted in an ankle injury.  The injury derails his 2009 season.
- After being handed the starting 3B job in 2010, Freese performs admirably for 2 months before suffering an ankle sprain which eventually becomes ankle surgery which eventually shuts down his 2010 season.

So on one hand, you could argue that the Cardinals have a young, inexpensive talent at third base.  Throw in the fact that he's from St. Louis and you've got a hell of a story.

One the other hand, you could argue that the Cardinals have pinned their hopes at third base on an unproven, injury-prone player with an alcohol problem on a team with a pretty bad history of handling alcohol issues.

OK, so excitement isn't the right word. Realistically the team has several places where upgrades would be desirable in the eyes of someone or another: innings-eater SP, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, Closer, LHP, back-up catcher, utility infielder.  Did I forget any?

We weren't going to be able to get legitimate help at each of those.  For home grown help, I like the idea of giving Freese another chance at 3B, if they are able to sign a John Mabry type of back-up.  That's what they tried to do with Lopez last year, but they backed-up one flake with another flake, and that didn't work too well.

"I don't know anyone who has expressed "excitement" for Jon Jay other than to say he could be a competent 4th outfielder."

Maybe it was because I kept referring to him as "a god?"

alz wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

With any luck, La Russa will leave after this season and we stop seeing personnel decisions based on attitude and what a player looks like.

Tk, I'm going to ask because I see it everywhere. What is with the hatred for TLR? He's won 7 division titles, 1 NL Pennant, and a World Series in the 15 seasons he's managed for us.

People always want him to leave, I don't know anyone I'd rather have managing to be honest. Whitey Herzog for all his amazing awesomeness only won the division 3 times in his 12 seasons, producing 2 NL Pennants and a World Series. Herzog is beloved by Cardinal fans, but LaRussa is pretty much considered a dirty word.

I wish someone would explain what TLR has done that is so monumentally wrong here, other than win.

I want him to leave now because I think he's completely lost it. And I don't think his general manager or the wonder boy in the draft room are competent enough to override his stupidity.

I'm less bothered by the Randy Winn, Pedro Feliz, Aaron Miles stuff than I am the Brendan Ryan/Skip Schumaker/Gerald Laird stuff. The manager actually denied that the Cardinals were interested in anyone else at second base out of respect for Schumaker. HUH? As I said before, this is Major League Baseball -- protecting the fee fees of a 31-year-old man is incredibly stupid. Not only that, but it hurts the team, which La Russa refuses to admit. Skip is NOT a second baseman. Why would you willingly put together such a horrible middle infield when you have a pitching staff that generates ground balls?

This Laird signing is another bugaboo. They are going to pay $1 million for a catcher that -- if everything goes right -- will make around 15 starts. That's just a case of the manager and the front office completely overvaluing the role of backup catcher. Saying publicly that you were going to look for more offense out of your backup, cutting Pagnozzi, then dropping a million bucks on a defense-first backup? How insane.

To my eyes, this organization looks disjointed and confused. They are trying to be the Florida Marlins (the player development), a team that thinks they are the 2002 Oakland A's (signing players that the market didn't properly value) and the Houston Astros/Pittsburgh Pirates/Kansas City Royals (signing players on the chance that they'll rebound). The problem is that they are failing at everything except the last part.

It's a sloppy, stupid mess and I think they are headed for another 85 or 86 wins.

Max wrote:

OK, so excitement isn't the right word. Realistically the team has several places where upgrades would be desirable in the eyes of someone or another: innings-eater SP, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, Closer, LHP, back-up catcher, utility infielder.  Did I forget any?

We weren't going to be able to get legitimate help at each of those.  For home grown help, I like the idea of giving Freese another chance at 3B, if they are able to sign a John Mabry type of back-up.  That's what they tried to do with Lopez last year, but they backed-up one flake with another flake, and that didn't work too well.

That is why I have brought up Jorge Cantu.  I think he could be had for cheap because of his struggles after being traded to the AL.  I also think he has more pop then Freese.  He has a 100 RBI season under his belt and a 29 HR season.  Interesting that you brought up Maybry because he kind of fits that mold.  I dont think he is great with the glove at third, second or the corner outfield spots but I think he would be fine if not over exposed.  He would add pop to the bench and could beat out Skip for the second base job if it was a honest race.  He wouldnt be an impact sign but he would add real insurance at several positions.  They cant have enough options at 2nd, 3rd or corner outfield spots.  There will at bats to be had.

TK, on your point about back up catcher I agree it is really stupid.  Do you or anyone else belive that TLR is fighting against anything and everything related to the new direction the Cardinals are trying to head in.  He has blocked almost every position player since Walt's firing.  Tyler Greene by signing Miles and Lopez.  Pazz and Anderson Laird by signing.  Ryan by singing Greene.  Craig and Jay by signing Winn and now Berkman.  He has issues with Rasmus.  I think he has supported Freese but he isnt from our system. The list goes on.  I believe he is throwing his wieght around to prove Walt/his way as valid.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

I don't want to be Freese's cheerleader, but I will reiterate that I am surprised there is not more excitement about this guy, especially considering the excitement for players who have not performed as well at the major league level, such as Jon Jay and Allen Craig.

I don't know anyone who has expressed "excitement" for Jon Jay other than to say he could be a competent 4th outfielder.

Perhaps the lack of excitement for Freese has something to do with these facts:

- 2 off-field alcohol-related incidents, including a DWI during which the breathalyzer showed Freese's blood alcohol content to be almost 3 times the legal limit.
- After being handed the starting 3B job coming out of spring training 2009, Freese struggles at which time it is revealed that Freese was involved in a single car accident that he didn't report to the team for 2 days (alcohol-related incident #3???) and which resulted in an ankle injury.  The injury derails his 2009 season.
- After being handed the starting 3B job in 2010, Freese performs admirably for 2 months before suffering an ankle sprain which eventually becomes ankle surgery which eventually shuts down his 2010 season.

So on one hand, you could argue that the Cardinals have a young, inexpensive talent at third base.  Throw in the fact that he's from St. Louis and you've got a hell of a story.

One the other hand, you could argue that the Cardinals have pinned their hopes at third base on an unproven, injury-prone player with an alcohol problem on a team with a pretty bad history of handling alcohol issues.

OK, so excitement isn't the right word. Realistically the team has several places where upgrades would be desirable in the eyes of someone or another: innings-eater SP, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, Closer, LHP, back-up catcher, utility infielder.  Did I forget any?

We weren't going to be able to get legitimate help at each of those.  For home grown help, I like the idea of giving Freese another chance at 3B, if they are able to sign a John Mabry type of back-up.  That's what they tried to do with Lopez last year, but they backed-up one flake with another flake, and that didn't work too well.

I don't disagree with anything you said here.  Because he's cheap and because he's about the only legitimate 3B available, he has to be the opening day starter, but that doesn't mean I don't have concerns.

The concern is that the team doesn't have a legitimate option if Freese fails or gets hurt.  For all the risk associated with Berkman, at least they have the Jay/Craig combo available if Berkman goes down.  If Freese goes down, we're going to see some combination of Tyler Greene/Descalso/Craig and 2 years ago they told us Craig couldn't be in the mix when Glaus went down because he played third with the equivalent of an iron skillet on his hand.

forsberg_us wrote:

alz wrote:

I wish someone would explain what TLR has done that is so monumentally wrong here, other than win.

A lot of people have touched on a variety of the issues.  IMO Larussa's issues started with Ozzie.  After they brought in Royce Clayton, Larussa made the announcement that there would be an open competition for the position.  Ozzie outplayed Clayton during Spring Training, but Clayton was named the starter.  Ozzie was beloved and there are a lot of people who have never forgiven Larussa for his handling of that situation.

One other thing on the Herzog/Larussa comparison.  In all fairness, Herzog didn't have to go through the nightly televised post-game press conferences.  My guess is that there are few things in life that Larussa loathes more than having to go through that exercise, particularly after a loss, and it shows.  As fans, the press conferences are about the only exposure we get to Larussa and, since he frequently comes across as an ass in those press conferences, it's pretty easy to think of him as an ass.  Herzog generally came across as extremely gregarious, but his televised interviews were less frequent and were likely conducted when he was in the mood to do the interview.  I'm guessing Herzog would have been similarly grumpy if someone would have caught him immediately after the game Strawberry hit Ken Dayley's hanging curveball off of the stadium clock or if he had to give nightly interviews during the 88-90 seasons.

As you said, Whitey didn't have to face the type of press conferences that managers do today although I think that has more to do with giving bimbos equal access.  Unlike players, managers did have the option of closing the doors to their office but I think male reporters generally had the option of hounding everyone, including managers, in the club house after the game.  But most of them weren't televised.  Neither Whitey nor LaRussa seems like a guy who likes to be questioned about his decisions.  That's one area where it seems like Bobby Cox is better than either of them, but I admit I've not seen enough of him to make a fair judgment.

The one time I can recall Whitey showing a negative side in an interview was the day when Marv Albert asked him if he'd be interested in applying for the job of president of Yale.  Frankly, I thought Whitey overreacted but I still enjoyed seeing someone light into Albert.  It's sort of like watching John Gotti getting gassed for a killing he didn't authorize.

tkihshbt wrote:

I want him to leave now because I think he's completely lost it.

This would be the time for you to revisit your assertion about Jocketty, that it was obvious that the game had passed him by.  I'll get you started:

"Now, I know I said a similar thing about Jocketty, and all he did was move to Cincinnati and develop the Reds into our strongest competition within the division, on a smaller budget and with less to start off with, but this is why I think what I am saying about La Russa is relevant in spite of that . . . [take it away]".

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I don't know anyone who has expressed "excitement" for Jon Jay other than to say he could be a competent 4th outfielder.

Perhaps the lack of excitement for Freese has something to do with these facts:

- 2 off-field alcohol-related incidents, including a DWI during which the breathalyzer showed Freese's blood alcohol content to be almost 3 times the legal limit.
- After being handed the starting 3B job coming out of spring training 2009, Freese struggles at which time it is revealed that Freese was involved in a single car accident that he didn't report to the team for 2 days (alcohol-related incident #3???) and which resulted in an ankle injury.  The injury derails his 2009 season.
- After being handed the starting 3B job in 2010, Freese performs admirably for 2 months before suffering an ankle sprain which eventually becomes ankle surgery which eventually shuts down his 2010 season.

So on one hand, you could argue that the Cardinals have a young, inexpensive talent at third base.  Throw in the fact that he's from St. Louis and you've got a hell of a story.

One the other hand, you could argue that the Cardinals have pinned their hopes at third base on an unproven, injury-prone player with an alcohol problem on a team with a pretty bad history of handling alcohol issues.

OK, so excitement isn't the right word. Realistically the team has several places where upgrades would be desirable in the eyes of someone or another: innings-eater SP, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, Closer, LHP, back-up catcher, utility infielder.  Did I forget any?

We weren't going to be able to get legitimate help at each of those.  For home grown help, I like the idea of giving Freese another chance at 3B, if they are able to sign a John Mabry type of back-up.  That's what they tried to do with Lopez last year, but they backed-up one flake with another flake, and that didn't work too well.

I don't disagree with anything you said here.  Because he's cheap and because he's about the only legitimate 3B available, he has to be the opening day starter, but that doesn't mean I don't have concerns.

The concern is that the team doesn't have a legitimate option if Freese fails or gets hurt.  For all the risk associated with Berkman, at least they have the Jay/Craig combo available if Berkman goes down.  If Freese goes down, we're going to see some combination of Tyler Greene/Descalso/Craig and 2 years ago they told us Craig couldn't be in the mix when Glaus went down because he played third with the equivalent of an iron skillet on his hand.

That's right.  They brought Berkman in to play in front of Craig/Jay, and I will be content--understanding their limitations--if they bring in a legitimate Plan B to play behind Freese.  In fact, I might have preferred that they had brought someone in to play behind Craig/Jay, too.  What about Edmonds?  Without looking I would guess his offensive numbers were just as good Berkman's last year, and I suspect he can play a corner outfield spot a whole lot better.  He probably wouldn't expect $8 million, either, and they might have had something left in the bank for a real LOOGY, or one of the other positions.