It's not so much Fowler replacing Holliday as much as Fowler replacing Grichuk replacing Holliday. The defense has been upgraded in two spots; the base running has improved tenfold and the OBP has dramatically increased.

Their work isn't done and if they aren't working out a deal for Justin Turner then they are being neglectful. They can't have a threesome of Wong, Gyorko, Peralta and Grichuk in the lineup every day because that's redundant. They need Turner to diversify the lineup and replace some of the pop that was lost with Moss and Holliday.

Turner also makes Diaz better, or at least shores up range issues to the right.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Reports are varied, but it looks like a 4-5 year deal worth between $16 million-$18 million per.

They have money.  Im not concerned about dewitts bank account.  I suppose if he can keep his on base precentage high throughout the contract this could be a worth while deal in two years when they have to move him from center.  My biggest worry is that the power he has will become obsolete at busch and his lack of range exposed.

"They could become more aggressive than previously believed, turning toward free-agent sluggers Mark Trumbo and Edwin Encarnacion as possible pursuits."

From post dispatch.  Idk where these names come from or how they fit.  I assume if wong gets traded they would move carp back to second and have these guys play first.  I suppose trumbo could play lf as well.  Gyorko imo should remain as the super sub and not as full time second baseman.  Also imo carp is best defensively at second.  Both these names would add a thump to the middle of the order.

If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams.

I don't know where the P-D came up with the names Encarnacion and Trumbo, but if the Cardinals were actually to consider something like that Carpenter would move back to 3rd and Peralta would become a bench guy.  Peralta also goes to the bench if they acquire Turner.

From what I've been told, Diaz's primary defensive liability is his arm--it's below average for a major league shortstop.  As a result, he rushes to make routine plays and that leads to errors.  Also, his range is sub-par.

"If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams."

Fine. Then stop dicking around with him. Put him at second base and leave him there. No outfield, no trips to the minors to work on his swing. I'm fairly convinced at this point at least part of Wong's issues are because of Matheny's cluelessness. Part of it is Wong's fault because his psyche is so brittle, but a better manager would be able to get more out of him than Matheny has.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams."

Fine. Then stop dicking around with him. Put him at second base and leave him there. No outfield, no trips to the minors to work on his swing. I'm fairly convinced at this point at least part of Wong's issues are because of Matheny's cluelessness. Part of it is Wong's fault because his psyche is so brittle, but a better manager would be able to get more out of him than Matheny has.

That's pretty much exactly what Moz said

"Clearly, I don't make lineups, but you have to have the understanding of patience," Mozeliak said on Day 2 of the Winter Meetings on Tuesday. "I do think he's one of those rare talents that by not being patient or by not understanding that there still could be some bumps in the road might end up not helping him long-term for his career."

http://m.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article/210489388/cards-would-prefer-to-build-around-kolten-wong/
 

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams."

Fine. Then stop dicking around with him. Put him at second base and leave him there. No outfield, no trips to the minors to work on his swing. I'm fairly convinced at this point at least part of Wong's issues are because of Matheny's cluelessness. Part of it is Wong's fault because his psyche is so brittle, but a better manager would be able to get more out of him than Matheny has.

That's pretty much exactly what Moz said

"Clearly, I don't make lineups, but you have to have the understanding of patience," Mozeliak said on Day 2 of the Winter Meetings on Tuesday. "I do think he's one of those rare talents that by not being patient or by not understanding that there still could be some bumps in the road might end up not helping him long-term for his career."

http://m.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article/210489388/cards-would-prefer-to-build-around-kolten-wong/
 

Thanks for providing a link to the Cardinals site and not the Post Dispatch's. Is it me, or is the P-D's website almost unnavigable these days? Believe me, I know how tough it is to make money in the newspaper industry these days, but by the time I get past the popup ads and then the half-dozen poll questions for their advertising department, I've forgotten about the article I wanted to read in the first place.

artie_fufkin wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

May the next Cubs player to be poached be future Hall of Famer Kris Bryant. He'll be a free agent right as Fowler's contract ends. 

Does that mean the Angels won't be able to sign him because they're still paying Pujols?
 

Why, yes. Yes, they will be. 

forsberg_us wrote:

So if the season were to start today, the lineup would look something like (trying to think like Matheny):

Fowler
Diaz
Carpenter
Piscotty
Molina
Peralta
Grichuk
Wong
Pitcher

I'm not sure anything about that excites me.

Add in turner, trumbo or Edwin to the middle of the order and i think you might have something.

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams."

Fine. Then stop dicking around with him. Put him at second base and leave him there. No outfield, no trips to the minors to work on his swing. I'm fairly convinced at this point at least part of Wong's issues are because of Matheny's cluelessness. Part of it is Wong's fault because his psyche is so brittle, but a better manager would be able to get more out of him than Matheny has.

That's pretty much exactly what Moz said

"Clearly, I don't make lineups, but you have to have the understanding of patience," Mozeliak said on Day 2 of the Winter Meetings on Tuesday. "I do think he's one of those rare talents that by not being patient or by not understanding that there still could be some bumps in the road might end up not helping him long-term for his career."

http://m.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article/210489388/cards-would-prefer-to-build-around-kolten-wong/
 

Thanks for providing a link to the Cardinals site and not the Post Dispatch's. Is it me, or is the P-D's website almost unnavigable these days? Believe me, I know how tough it is to make money in the newspaper industry these days, but by the time I get past the popup ads and then the half-dozen poll questions for their advertising department, I've forgotten about the article I wanted to read in the first place.

Fyi hidden at the bottom of the survey popup is the option to "skip this survey".

APIAD wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams.

I don't know where the P-D came up with the names Encarnacion and Trumbo, but if the Cardinals were actually to consider something like that Carpenter would move back to 3rd and Peralta would become a bench guy.  Peralta also goes to the bench if they acquire Turner.

From what I've been told, Diaz's primary defensive liability is his arm--it's below average for a major league shortstop.  As a result, he rushes to make routine plays and that leads to errors.  Also, his range is sub-par.

"The Cardinals would trade any player if offered the right deal. But, GM John Mozeliak says, “We’re not actively shopping him.”

Not shopping isnt the same as untouchable.   I hold out hope he isnt on the 2017 team.

No player is "untouchable."  They aren't actively shopping Martinez or Reyes, but if they were offered Mike Trout or Manny Machado, they'd probably listen.

The way I read that story was the only chance they trade Wong is if someone called and overwhelmed them with an offer. I'm sure there are people who think highly of Wong, and the fact that he's cost-controlled adds some value, but I doubt someone is going to over-pay for him.

But I wouldn't have thought Adam Eaton would have brought the kind of return he did either, so what do I know.

APIAD wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"If you read the Cardinals website, they don't intend to trade Wong.  Maybe that's just Moz trying to drive up his value, but there was a story there a couple of days ago talking up Wong, in particular his defensive ability and Moz was specifically quote as saying he wasn't shopping Wong to other teams."

Fine. Then stop dicking around with him. Put him at second base and leave him there. No outfield, no trips to the minors to work on his swing. I'm fairly convinced at this point at least part of Wong's issues are because of Matheny's cluelessness. Part of it is Wong's fault because his psyche is so brittle, but a better manager would be able to get more out of him than Matheny has.

The same theory could be said of grichuk. He was a 25/70 player last year and this club treats him like he needs worked out of the plans in 2017. He has room for improvement but if this team isnt going to give him a full season, trade him.

Wong is more fix-able, for a lack of a better word, than Grichuk, at least to me. Grichuk's ceiling is probably around 25/70. His improvement could come from a higher average and fewer strikeouts. Unfortunately, he's not shown he's capable of accomplishing either, except in short bursts. If the club wants to give him 500 at bats in left field this season, that's fine, but he better have learned to lay off that slider in the dirt by the end of it.