- Max
- Colby Rasmus
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Re: First Injury of the Year
I tend to think it is a negotiating tactic to get what he wants: a lifetime deal with the Cards.
But if the Cards were to deal Carp, and maybe even Westbrook, first (they might even be able to deal Holliday, especially since his contract looks like a good deal, these days), leaving a team of Pujols and a bunch of youngsters, then he might be reconciled to playing for another team, one with a better chance of winning in 2011-2013.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
"Pujols numbers will increase without Wainright in the rotation however. Pitching to Albert with 2 runners on while up 6-1 because you rocked McClellan isn't so bad as trying to pitch to him with a 2-1 lead because Wain-o is on the mound."
I believe this is formally referred to as "The Looper Theory" in Cardinals' parlance.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Max wrote:
I tend to think it is a negotiating tactic to get what he wants: a lifetime deal with the Cards.
But if the Cards were to deal Carp, and maybe even Westbrook, first (they might even be able to deal Holliday, especially since his contract looks like a good deal, these days), leaving a team of Pujols and a bunch of youngsters, then he might be reconciled to playing for another team, one with a better chance of winning in 2011-2013.
Let's take it one step beyond. Trade the entire team, bring up the Springfield Cardinals, replace the Birds on the Bat with "Pirates of the Mississippi" and have them battle the Cubs for fourth place. That'll fill the seats.
Last edited by artie_fufkin (2/23/2011 3:26 pm)
- Max
- Colby Rasmus
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Well, there's no good reason to trade the ones who you still control for several years, like Rasmus and Garcia, but everyone else would be fair game: Pujols, Carp, a recovering Wainwright, and Molina probably being the most valuable.
- JV
- Ray Lankford
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Re: First Injury of the Year
"Pirates of the Mississippi"
LOL! Missed ya, man!
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
"Pirates of the Mississippi"
LOL! Missed ya, man!
Thanks, J. Two more youth basketball games next week and then no more coaching until the fall. I'll be posting until my fingers are bloody stumps.
- APIAD
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Losing Waiwright is bad. I think it is worst then if they would have lost Pujols.
Maybe Berkamn can talk Pettitte into returning.
- Max
- Colby Rasmus
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Losing Waiwright is bad. I think it is worst then if they would have lost Pujols.
Maybe Berkamn can talk Pettitte into returning.
rec.
- APIAD
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Re: First Injury of the Year
He is headed for the knife. His contract is a really interesting aspect of this injury. I dont think it has ever been brought up on here but the extension on Wainwright's contract was really turning into a great deal. Now he has a 9 million option for 2012 and 12 million for 2013. Depending on his recovery he could miss part of 2012. The Cardinals have some options. They could let him become a free agent. I dont like that idea because some team would surely take a risk on Wainwright and outbid the Cardinals. However it would open up money to spend on Pujols. Secondly they could try and rework the extension into another deal and avoid Wainwright becoming a free agent. This really isnt a benifit for Wainwright to do because he could likely get a bigger deal then what the Cardinals are going to pay him if he entered the market. Thirdly they pick up the 2012 option for 9 million. They still could decline the 2013 option the following year if they wanted to for whatever reason. This seems like a no brainer but who knows.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
I would hope what happens with Wainwright doesn't factor in with how they negotiate with Pujols, but you're brought up an intruiging possibility, AP.
The obvious tack is to pick up Wainwright's option for '12 regardless, and wait-and-see how the season plays out before you commit to him for '13. You're probably looking for something similar to how they handled Matty Mo - work him out of the pen when he comes back and gradually ease him into the rotation.
- Max
- Colby Rasmus
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Re: First Injury of the Year
If I were to caricature the WJ method with the DeWitt method, WJ would see that he has a very favorable contract. To earn player loyalty, he would work to extend now. Maybe a five year deal worth $75 M. The operation puts the team in an even stronger position for that kind of deal, although with greater risk.
The DeWitt method is, we win. See you in free agency kid.
- APIAD
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Re: First Injury of the Year
I would hope what happens with Wainwright doesn't factor in with how they negotiate with Pujols, but you're brought up an intruiging possibility, AP.
The obvious tack is to pick up Wainwright's option for '12 regardless, and wait-and-see how the season plays out before you commit to him for '13. You're probably looking for something similar to how they handled Matty Mo - work him out of the pen when he comes back and gradually ease him into the rotation.
2012 closer?
- tkihshbt
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Max, perhaps you need to be a Yankees fan, where the owners look at the team like a hobby instead of a business. No other team is going to give a pitcher about to get TJ surgery a 5 year, $75 million deal. That's preposterously stupid, on par with sailing in the Gulf of Aden.
- APIAD
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Max, perhaps you need to be a Yankees fan, where the owners look at the team like a hobby instead of a business. No other team is going to give a pitcher about to get TJ surgery a 5 year, $75 million deal. That's preposterously stupid, on par with sailing in the Gulf of Aden.
It would be interesting to know what Wainwright would get on the market. I assume some team would beat a 2 year 21 million dollar deal that the Cardinals basicly have but I dont know. That is a big contract to pay a guy who just had TJ. Pitch do recover from TJ seemingly easy but it is still a risk. If Wainwright really thought the Cardinals would cut him lose and he would get less on the market maybe they could rework his deal.
- forsberg_us
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Re: First Injury of the Year
If I were to caricature the WJ method with the DeWitt method, WJ would see that he has a very favorable contract. To earn player loyalty, he would work to extend now. Maybe a five year deal worth $75 M. The operation puts the team in an even stronger position for that kind of deal, although with greater risk.
The DeWitt method is, we win. See you in free agency kid.
Max, who do you think authorized those contracts Jocketty negotiated during his years as the Cardinal GM? You don't think that Dewitt gave his blessing before McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen and Pujols were signed to lengthy extensions? You think WJ really made these decisions about signing players to 7-8 year deals without any consultation with ownership?
I'm seriously starting to understand why you enjoy Burwell's articles so much.
Last edited by forsberg_us (2/24/2011 12:46 pm)
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Thread Starter- APIAD
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Re: First Injury of the Year
DeWitt seems to be more of a baseball man then alot of owners. Good or bad I believe that to be true. Nothing happens without his blessing. Maybe if the owner admitted to not knowing how to staff a club the GM would be given more power. As long as the owner wants final say then he gets it.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
"It would be interesting to know what Wainwright would get on the market."
A lot less today than he would have gotten on Tuesday.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Max, perhaps you need to be a Yankees fan, where the owners look at the team like a hobby instead of a business. No other team is going to give a pitcher about to get TJ surgery a 5 year, $75 million deal. That's preposterously stupid, on par with sailing in the Gulf of Aden.
Max is already on the record that if Albert leaves he's going to become a Reds fan, because he appreciates class.
- APIAD
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"It would be interesting to know what Wainwright would get on the market."
A lot less today than he would have gotten on Tuesday.
It is just to bad that he didnt know this needed to be done at the end of last year when the issue presented itself. Wainwright could have been fully ready in 2012.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
DeWitt seems to be more of a baseball man then alot of owners. Good or bad I believe that to be true. Nothing happens without his blessing. Maybe if the owner admitted to not knowing how to staff a club the GM would be given more power. As long as the owner wants final say then he gets it.
As is his right. But I think we're kidding ourselves if we think his first loyalty is to anything other than the bottom line. Someone mentioned the other day that 2006 had a profound impact on DeWitt's mentality that the goal is to get into the playoffs, and then take what comes in the post-season, and that's probably accurate. Why be the Yankees and spend $200 million when you can put out half that and still be one of eight teams that only has to win 11 games in October?
I don't mean all of that in an entirely bad way. I'd much rather have DeWitt at the helm than a nutjob like Drayton McLamebrain who touts a team starting Kaz Matsui at second base as a World Series contender.
- APIAD
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Re: First Injury of the Year
We all take shots at the Yankees but I doubt they spend more money then they make. As a owner who has invest alot of money in the club you would be stupid to not expect a sizable return. I dont think the Yankees are just a hobby for the Steinbrenner's.
- artie_fufkin
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Re: First Injury of the Year
We all take shots at the Yankees but I doubt they spend more money then they make. As a owner who has invest alot of money in the club you would be stupid to not expect a sizable return. I dont think the Yankees are just a hobby for the Steinbrenner's.
The in-house TV networks are really a cash cow for the teams that have them. I think I read somewhere the YES network brought in $500 million alone last year, so they're starting out $300 million in the black before someone walks through a turnstile or eats a Yankee Frankee or whatever the hell they call the hot dogs they sell in the Bronx.
I don't know why DeWitt hasn't tried to pull that off. There are Cardinals' fans in every burgh in the Midwest from Louisville to Lincoln, and probably as far south as Baton Rouge.
- alz
- Larry Walker
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Re: First Injury of the Year
I don't know why DeWitt hasn't tried to pull that off. There are Cardinals' fans in every burgh in the Midwest from Louisville to Lincoln, and probably as far south as Baton Rouge.
Um... because it's impossible to claim small market poverty when you need to cheap out on paying the best player of the modern era? That's my only guess. Maybe he hates money. Some guys hate pussy after all, course we call them fags and ridicule them...
- Max
- Colby Rasmus
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Max, perhaps you need to be a Yankees fan, where the owners look at the team like a hobby instead of a business. No other team is going to give a pitcher about to get TJ surgery a 5 year, $75 million deal. That's preposterously stupid, on par with sailing in the Gulf of Aden.
you didn't read carefully enough for me to bother a thoughtful response.
- Max
- Colby Rasmus
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Re: First Injury of the Year
Max, perhaps you need to be a Yankees fan, where the owners look at the team like a hobby instead of a business. No other team is going to give a pitcher about to get TJ surgery a 5 year, $75 million deal. That's preposterously stupid, on par with sailing in the Gulf of Aden.
It would be interesting to know what Wainwright would get on the market. I assume some team would beat a 2 year 21 million dollar deal that the Cardinals basicly have but I dont know. That is a big contract to pay a guy who just had TJ. Pitch do recover from TJ seemingly easy but it is still a risk. If Wainwright really thought the Cardinals would cut him lose and he would get less on the market maybe they could rework his deal.
exactly. let them conduct the operation and make sure that it went reasonably well, then consider a gamble to extend him. if i am not mistaken, WJ grabbed carpenter on the cheap, and earned his loyalty by taking a gamble on him right after surgery, when he would be unavailable for 1+ years.