forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

If I were to caricature the WJ method with the DeWitt method, WJ would see that he has a very favorable contract.  To earn player loyalty, he would work to extend now.  Maybe a five year deal worth $75 M.  The operation puts the team in an even stronger position for that kind of deal, although with greater risk.

The DeWitt method is, we win.  See you in free agency kid.

Max, who do you think authorized those contracts Jocketty negotiated during his years as the Cardinal GM?  You don't think that Dewitt gave his blessing before McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen and Pujols were signed to lengthy extensions?  You think WJ really made these decisions about signing players to 7-8 year deals without any consultation with ownership?

I'm seriously starting to understand why you enjoy Burwell's articles so much.

The constant is DeWitt, the variable is WJ/Mozeliak.  It's really not that hard to work out an eyeball estimate as to WJ's effect.

APRTW wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"It would be interesting to know what Wainwright would get on the market."

A lot less today than he would have gotten on Tuesday.

It is just to bad that he didnt know this needed to be done at the end of last year when the issue presented itself.  Wainwright could have been fully ready in 2012.

That's really the $64,000 question right now.  La Russa's public denial that the current problem is linked to September's could be taken as the confirmation that they crossed their fingers and hoped, but the ligament didn't magically heal.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

If I were to caricature the WJ method with the DeWitt method, WJ would see that he has a very favorable contract.  To earn player loyalty, he would work to extend now.  Maybe a five year deal worth $75 M.  The operation puts the team in an even stronger position for that kind of deal, although with greater risk.

The DeWitt method is, we win.  See you in free agency kid.

Max, who do you think authorized those contracts Jocketty negotiated during his years as the Cardinal GM?  You don't think that Dewitt gave his blessing before McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen and Pujols were signed to lengthy extensions?  You think WJ really made these decisions about signing players to 7-8 year deals without any consultation with ownership?

I'm seriously starting to understand why you enjoy Burwell's articles so much.

The constant is DeWitt, the variable is WJ/Mozeliak.  It's really not that hard to work out an eyeball estimate as to WJ's effect.

Dewitt isn't a constant if he changed his ownership philosophy after 2006. 

In 2004, the Cardinals were 10 1/2 games in front on August 6 and they still went out and traded for Larry Walker

Do you think Dewitt authorizes that same move in 2010?

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max, who do you think authorized those contracts Jocketty negotiated during his years as the Cardinal GM?  You don't think that Dewitt gave his blessing before McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen and Pujols were signed to lengthy extensions?  You think WJ really made these decisions about signing players to 7-8 year deals without any consultation with ownership?

I'm seriously starting to understand why you enjoy Burwell's articles so much.

The constant is DeWitt, the variable is WJ/Mozeliak.  It's really not that hard to work out an eyeball estimate as to WJ's effect.

Dewitt isn't a constant if he changed his ownership philosophy after 2006. 

In 2004, the Cardinals were 10 1/2 games in front on August 6 and they still went out and traded for Larry Walker

Do you think Dewitt authorizes that same move in 2010?

I dunno.  What do you think?

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

The constant is DeWitt, the variable is WJ/Mozeliak.  It's really not that hard to work out an eyeball estimate as to WJ's effect.

Dewitt isn't a constant if he changed his ownership philosophy after 2006. 

In 2004, the Cardinals were 10 1/2 games in front on August 6 and they still went out and traded for Larry Walker

Do you think Dewitt authorizes that same move in 2010?

I dunno.  What do you think?

I don't think he authorizes the trade.  I think he assumes that up 10 1/2 with 50-55 games to go that the team makes the playoffs and he's willing to take his chances from there.

And I'll take it one step further.  I don't think the answer matters whether the GM is WJ or Moz.  For all of your criticism of Moz and praise for WJ, there is no disputing that organizational changes brought about by Dewitt led to WJ's departure from the organization.  I'm not suggesting that Moz is a candidate for Executive of the Year, but I don't think he's terrible at his job either.  I think he operates under a lot more constraints that WJ did, and comparing the two is an apples/oranges comparison.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Dewitt isn't a constant if he changed his ownership philosophy after 2006. 

In 2004, the Cardinals were 10 1/2 games in front on August 6 and they still went out and traded for Larry Walker

Do you think Dewitt authorizes that same move in 2010?

I dunno.  What do you think?

I don't think he authorizes the trade.  I think he assumes that up 10 1/2 with 50-55 games to go that the team makes the playoffs and he's willing to take his chances from there.

And I'll take it one step further.  I don't think the answer matters whether the GM is WJ or Moz.  For all of your criticism of Moz and praise for WJ, there is no disputing that organizational changes brought about by Dewitt led to WJ's departure from the organization.  I'm not suggesting that Moz is a candidate for Executive of the Year, but I don't think he's terrible at his job either.  I think he operates under a lot more constraints that WJ did, and comparing the two is an apples/oranges comparison.

I think that successful people believe what they believe mostly for good reasons.  If right now DeWitt believes that you need to make the playoffs and then anybody can win it all, that could change if he got there several years in a row and got creamed again and again by a better, more prepared team.  I think the Walker trade was a good one, and frankly, it is very common to see teams with a solid lead continue to strengthen themselves throughout July and August.  DeWitt might come to see it that way if the evidence is strong enough to convince him.  Right now it's his money and not mine, and so it easier for me to see the wisdom in spending money to make money. 

I don't see Moz as being bad so much as I think that DeWitt decided he wanted a GM whom he could more easily control.  We could look at it as a battle between the Jocketty group and the Luhnow group, but in the end, BOTH have had their wings clipped and William DeWitt, junior is in greater control of the whole show than ever.  I expect that trend to increase when he finally replaces La Russa.  So, I think that Moz was brought in to be a GM-in-training, under DeWitt's tutelage, and that's pretty much what he's been.  He's no Walt Jocketty, but that wasn't DeWitt's plan.

Max wrote:

So, I think that Moz was brought in to be a GM-in-training, under DeWitt's tutelage, and that's pretty much what he's been.  He's no Walt Jocketty, but that wasn't DeWitt's plan.

Actually, Moz was brought in to be a GM-in-training under WJ's tutelage.  He was WJ's assistant GM for 5 years and was with the organization going back to 1996. 

I agree that Moz was deemed a better fit between the Luhnow method and the Larussa method, and I don't think there's any question that the divide between these two methods was what ultimately led to WJ's demise.  I also have little doubt that Moz was ultimately hired because of his ability to get along with Luhnow (an ability that neither WJ, nor the other prospective GMs the team interviewed seemed to possess).  But to say "he's no WJ" implies that WJ could have done more in the last 3-4 years with similar constraints, and I'm not sure I agree with that.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

You know this how exactly?

I don't.  Like anything else, these are just educated guesses by fans.  But I believe you shared some insider information that DeWitt told Moz he pulled the trigger too quickly in signing Lohse, and also that he privately admitted that the Luhnow moneyball system wasn't working, with the implication being that we might need to start trading prospects for established players.  In both cases, we can see what seems like a strong effect on Moz.  He didn't do another large, longterm contract until Holliday's, and he went out and traded the farm system away to get Holliday and DeRosa.  Those being just two examples.

I don't see how the Luhnow issue has anything to do with Moz.  The implication that I would draw from that is that Luhnow was a Snake Oil Salesman who should have never been put in charge of the draft.  He didn't have some magic formula that was going to allow them to identify "diamond in the rough" talent.  If there's been any change, it's been the team's sudden willingness to draft the best player available and pay over slot for that talent as they've done each of the last 3 seasons.

As far as the Loshe issue, yes Dewitt apparently criticized Moz about acting too soon.  It had such a profound effect that he didn't do another long-term deal until the very next off-season. 

And, at the risk of picking the scab off of an extremely old wound, to the extent the organization was gun-shy about trading away prospects, how much of that was the result of the disaster that was the Haren/Mulder trade (a WJ move, not Moz)?

1) I did some reading that stated that Moz was close to the Luhnow group, and 2) anything that got rid of Jocketty concerned the Luhnow-LaRuncanocketty fracture within the organization. 

In spite of the Mulder trade, which I hated from day 1, for the admittedly silly reason that I thought we shouldn't trade Calero, we were still dominant in '05 and squeaked out a world championship in '06.  So, something about the Jocketty system was working.  My feeling is that DeWitt used the excuse of a poor performance in '07, plus some left over office politics issues, including the Mulder trade, to empower the Luhnow wing in '08, only to trade away their prospects in '09 and clip their wings in '10.  So, while admitting there are many perspectives from which to view this, I think looking at the personality of Il Supremo is a reasonable one, and, yeah, DeWitt seems to be consolidating his power.

Last edited by Max (2/24/2011 4:30 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max is already on the record that if Albert leaves he's going to become a Reds fan, because he appreciates class.

Thanks for mischaracterizing what I wrote, bud.

OK, then help me out. The way I read your post, you suggested if the Cardinals don't sign Pujols, there would be fans - you among them - who would start rooting for the Reds because their general manager and their third baseman conduct themselves with class.
I conceded the point about Rolen and Jocketty because I'm not interested in revisiting the discussion about the circumstances under which they each left St. Louis. I like Rolen. I like Jocketty. I wish they were both still with the Cardinals, and they could still be here if they wished. I'll leave it at that.
But I'm not going to not challenge an assertion that the Reds last year on the whole conducted themselves with class. They didn't. There were several people in that dugout, including the manager, who behaved like a bunch of spoiled punks.
And I certainly don't agree with the point that Cardinals' fans will start defecting to the Reds if Albert leaves. I'd like to give Cardinals' fans more credit than that.
If any of my impressions are incorrect, please endeavor to correct me.

I'm not going to look them all up, but I believe what I wrote is that if the Cards fumble the Pujols extension, then I might be inclined to change my allegiance.  In an earlier post, I said I might likely follow Pujols if he went to the Cubs.  In the last post, the one you reacted to, I think i wrote something about the Reds showing some class and being a good candidate for my allegiance, if worse comes to worse. 

What other Cards fans do is up to them. 

But just for the sake of accuracy, let's go back to the brawl that led to little Janey Cueto showing his true colors.  That was Carpenter who poured gasoline on the flames after it had nearly played itself out.  I hate to admit it, but was a star pitcher for the Cardinals who showed a lack of class at a key moment.  LaRue was kicked in the head defending Carpenter from a good thumping that he partially deserved.  After that, it was Scott Rolen who worked very carefully to defuse things.  There was class and a lack of class on both sides that day.

forsberg_us wrote:

I don't think he authorizes the trade.  I think he assumes that up 10 1/2 with 50-55 games to go that the team makes the playoffs and he's willing to take his chances from there.

And I'll take it one step further.  I don't think the answer matters whether the GM is WJ or Moz.  For all of your criticism of Moz and praise for WJ, there is no disputing that organizational changes brought about by Dewitt led to WJ's departure from the organization.  I'm not suggesting that Moz is a candidate for Executive of the Year, but I don't think he's terrible at his job either.  I think he operates under a lot more constraints that WJ did, and comparing the two is an apples/oranges comparison.

That is my opinion as well.  I think if you would replace Mo with Walt and make Walt preform under the same restrictions Mo is you would get about the same results.

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

Thanks for mischaracterizing what I wrote, bud.

OK, then help me out. The way I read your post, you suggested if the Cardinals don't sign Pujols, there would be fans - you among them - who would start rooting for the Reds because their general manager and their third baseman conduct themselves with class.
I conceded the point about Rolen and Jocketty because I'm not interested in revisiting the discussion about the circumstances under which they each left St. Louis. I like Rolen. I like Jocketty. I wish they were both still with the Cardinals, and they could still be here if they wished. I'll leave it at that.
But I'm not going to not challenge an assertion that the Reds last year on the whole conducted themselves with class. They didn't. There were several people in that dugout, including the manager, who behaved like a bunch of spoiled punks.
And I certainly don't agree with the point that Cardinals' fans will start defecting to the Reds if Albert leaves. I'd like to give Cardinals' fans more credit than that.
If any of my impressions are incorrect, please endeavor to correct me.

I'm not going to look them all up, but I believe what I wrote is that if the Cards fumble the Pujols extension, then I might be inclined to change my allegiance.  In an earlier post, I said I might likely follow Pujols if he went to the Cubs.  In the last post, the one you reacted to, I think i wrote something about the Reds showing some class and being a good candidate for my allegiance, if worse comes to worse. 

What other Cards fans do is up to them. 

But just for the sake of accuracy, let's go back to the brawl that led to little Janey Cueto showing his true colors.  That was Carpenter who poured gasoline on the flames after it had nearly played itself out.  I hate to admit it, but was a star pitcher for the Cardinals who showed a lack of class at a key moment.  LaRue was kicked in the head defending Carpenter from a good thumping that he partially deserved.  After that, it was Scott Rolen who worked very carefully to defuse things.  There was class and a lack of class on both sides that day.

Capenter behaved poorly, but if Phillips doesn't call the Cardinals a bunch of whiners in the press and then doesn't incite Molina by tapping on his shinguards like Yadi is supposed to be his own personal bitch, then none of it happens at all.
And let's not forget things were all but calmed down when Dusty started waving his toothpick at Carpenter.
As for Cueto, again, kicking someone, especially in the head, while you're wearing metal spikes is one of the worst things you can do on a baseball field. There's a code by which baseball players abide. It's like a hockey player stamping on someone with skates. You just don't do it because you can put a player out of work permanently. There are 29 clubhouses in major league baseball in which Cueto will never have any respect. He's probably even a pariah among some of the Reds.

Max wrote:

I said at the time, and I'll say it again, when I watched the video and rewatched it several times, I came away with the impression that Cueto panicked, as in literally panicked.  It is never cool to kick someone in the head with spikes, but the scorn that we heap on a pussy who panicked in a crowd and started kicking like a little girl is different from the scorn we heap on a prick who knowingly chooses to kick someone in the head with spikes.  Janey Cueto deserves little to no respect or sympathy in all 30 mlb clubhouses, because people saw the man he truly is when his back was quite literally against a wall. 

I am willing to give Jocketty some time to see what he makes of that club.  He was given a pretty poor starting point.

Character wise yes but talent wise no.  Walt hasnt done anything for that team other then sign Rolen and a dozen other ex cardinals.  Rolen turned out to be key but the rest of the move havent really mattered.  all the dumpster diving credit we give Walt and he hasnt really shown that skill with the Reds.

Max wrote:

I said at the time, and I'll say it again, when I watched the video and rewatched it several times, I came away with the impression that Cueto panicked, as in literally panicked.  It is never cool to kick someone in the head with spikes, but the scorn that we heap on a pussy who panicked in a crowd and started kicking like a little girl is different from the scorn we heap on a prick who knowingly chooses to kick someone in the head with spikes.  Janey Cueto deserves little to no respect or sympathy in all 30 mlb clubhouses, because people saw the man he truly is when his back was quite literally against a wall. 

I am willing to give Jocketty some time to see what he makes of that club.  He was given a pretty poor starting point.

Not from a talent standpoint. WJ walked into a team that had been drafting in the top half of the draft for the last 15 years. They've got a ton of young talent. But either the team adopted the classless persona of Dusty or he was the perfect hire to manage a bunch of classless pricks. Either way, I had a considerable laugh watching them finally make the playoffs but not record a hit until Game 2 of the series.