CardsFans » Bernie on Pujols & Rasmus

alz · 4/14/2011 12:54 pm

artie_fufkin wrote:
I think this is the first time I've ever read "Ankiel" and "reliable" in the same sentence. Defensive comparisons of anyone to Edmonds are silly. He's the best centerfielder of his generation, and maybe any generation.

If Ankiel is considered bad defensively, then where does that put Colby? Ankiel has 3 more errors, and a similar fielding % to Rasmus, but played ~30-40 less games at the position.

At least with Ankiel, you knew he was doing his best. Rasmus comes off as a 2nd rendition of Manny Ramirez (without the juice), and half-ass'ing it. Given his attitude questions, this lack of effort in the outfield gets seriously irritating. Thankfully he doesn't take this same approach to his hitting, or there'd be no value in him at all.

I don't particularly care that Rasmus dropped a ball (two actually, but whatever). He's not going to catch everything, but taking stupid loafing angles on balls, getting torched because he needed to run harder to get to a ball from that angle (and really looked like he could have gotten there had he been hustling, but just wasn't hustling), and turns a single into a double will piss me off everytime. I would assume it pissed off every Cardinal fan, that shit just isn't cool to me.

I've watched this board hammer other players for giving their best effort and it not being enough, so why does Rasmus get a pass here? Because he's immensely talented and isn't living up to it? Isn't that worse? Again, at least with Skippy, or Holliday, or even Miles, I knew that I was getting their best. With Rasmus? I'm not even sure we're getting his C effort in the field.

tkihshbt · 4/14/2011 1:34 pm

I don't know how you can honestly judge that, though. People used to say Edmonds and Andruw Jones loafed to balls, too.

Max · 4/14/2011 1:50 pm

and don't forget bobbling a ball and turning a double into a triple, alz.

forsberg_us · 4/14/2011 1:50 pm

Max wrote:
What is clear from that video is that Jay had the better route, the better chance to catch that ball, and ultimately was the guy with the ball in his hand. Without Rasmus in the picture, Jay probably would have caught that ball, the game would have been over, and we would have won. So, I guess you can say that it is true that on that play Corby gave too much effort, and lost the game for us in the process, because if Corby had just pissed his pants and fell on the field crying, we would have won.

I don't think that's what the video shows at all. If anything, the video shows that Jay took a poor route to the ball and that Corby took the correct route.

Look at the first few seconds after the camera turns to the outfield. Jay's initial route takes him directly toward the area of the 382 sign to the left of the Emerald Almonds sign. As Jay neared the warning track, he then made a right turn and began running almost parallel to the warning track. The ball came down well to the right of the Emerald Almonds sign, much closer to the Yahoo sign.

In contrast, Rasmus' initial path took him directly toward the left side of the Yahoo sign which is precisely where the ball landed.

I don't think Rasmus dropped the ball due to a lack of effort. I think he pulled up because he didn't want to collide with Jay. I'd also add that Rasmus appears to have covered considerably more ground on that play than did Jay, probably because Rasmus ran in a straight line the whole way.

I still think the play should have been made, but I don't attribute it not being made to a lack of effort.

Last edited by forsberg_us (4/14/2011 1:54 pm)

artie_fufkin · 4/14/2011 2:03 pm

"If Ankiel is considered bad defensively, then where does that put Colby?"

I never wrote Ankiel was bad defensively. My comment was about his reliablity.

"Rasmus comes off as a 2nd rendition of Manny Ramirez (without the juice), and half-ass'ing it."

That's ridiculous. Not even worth addressing further.

"turns a single into a double"

Example, please.

"I would assume it pissed off every Cardinal fan, that shit just isn't cool to me."

Please don't go the Rocket "I-guess-I'm-a-better-fan-than-you-are" route. I've got a pretty good idea what I'm doing.

"at least with Skippy, or Holliday, or even Miles, I knew that I was getting their best."

I don't know too many people here who have been unfairly critical of Skip. Even he admits to his defensive limitations. I made a crack about his lack of power last night. So what? He's not a home run hitter. I don't recall too many critical statements about Holliday. In fact, one of our former regulars unleashed a screed on us last year for not being critical at all of Holliday when he was scuffling at the beginning of the season.
I'll plead guilty on Miles. The reason why I dislike him so much is because of what he said on his way out the door when he signed with the Cubs. His comments indicated the Cardinals' front office failed to see he was the second coming of Rogers Hornsby. The only two baseball people who think Aaron Miles is an everyday player are Aaron Miles and Tony La Russa. The Rockies threw him into the Bigbie/King deal as an after-thought, the Cubs paid $2 million for him to not play for them, and the Reds let him walk. So Miles is right and everyone else is wrong? Of course. That's the answer.

"With Rasmus? I'm not even sure we're getting his C effort in the field."

Again, taking a bad route on a ball isn't a lack of effort. It's a 24-year-old kid who is still learning how to be a major league centerfielder taking a bad route.

artie_fufkin · 4/14/2011 2:18 pm

Max wrote:
and don't forget bobbling a ball and turning a double into a triple, alz.

Right! And he was probably in on the McKinley assassination, too! But he was too lazy to pull the trigger, so he let Czolgosz do all the dirty work.

alz · 4/14/2011 3:08 pm

I could be just kicking his ass because I heard Van Slyke, and then watched him bone up a pretty easy fielding play that night. In my defense I remember thinking that Rasmus should have caught that damned ball before I heard AVS talking trash though. A drop here or there isn't a killer for me, everyone is human, even Edmonds made some boners out there.

To be honest with you, I would love to see him leave his feet, hit a wall, make a great play or two. That would ease my mind a bit about whether he's going to be an asset in Center Field. Right now he has me concerned he's too chickenshit to lay out for a play, and that's not something I would want to see in Center. I'd rather stuff him in right or left if he's going to play that way. We'll see, maybe he'll dazzle, I just don't like what I've seen to point.

EDIT:
Actually there's more to this, and yes it comes from the opinion of a 5 time GG centerfielder (misleading or not). If Slyke says someone should be further along at 24 then they are in center field, I believe he might know a thing or two about the position. I believe there's merit to it when he says that "to this point, Rasmus is going backwards. He's worse to this point then he's ever been out there."

That is going to make me really start watching, and when (I think it was Bloomquist) someone hits a soft liner to Center/Right Center, and Rasmus takes an aggressive angle, but doesn't use aggressive hustle to get there, blows it and has to chase the thing back to the track, I'm annoyed.

That's not new for me man, I'm not ripping on your fanhood or saying mine is better. I'll cheer for losers, I don't care, but those little bastards better be laying out and giving me their best. I can put up with a lot of bullshit if it happens to come with hustle...

Last edited by alz (4/14/2011 3:17 pm)

tkihshbt · 4/14/2011 3:17 pm

I want to see him run into a wall never.

alz · 4/14/2011 3:25 pm

tkihshbt wrote:
I want to see him run into a wall never.

Don't worry, he'll pull up 30 feet before the wall and trot the last 15 to make sure he's safe... Heaven forbid he focuses on making a play once in a while...

forsberg_us · 4/14/2011 3:26 pm

I really don't get the "run into a wall" idea. Since when is running into a wall a smart play?

I saw Chris Duncan dive for a number of ball and run into several walls. Does that make him a better outfielder than Rasmus?

APIAD · 4/14/2011 3:33 pm

I would like to see him put himself in position so that he doesnt have to make last second adjustments on seemingly easy balls. He is naturally athletic and I think he relies on that alot in the field. If he could learn to judge balls better and take better routs he is good enough to win a gold glove. Him have to make last second stabs at the ball makes him look clumsy. He also suffers from Juan Encarnacion syndrome. He doesnt have to run hard to cover alot of ground and doesnt smile alot.

I thought I remeber Fors telling a story about him not responding to criticism well during last years girl throwing episodes but I am not sure about that.

alz · 4/14/2011 3:35 pm

forsberg_us wrote:
I saw Chris Duncan dive for a number of ball and run into several walls. Does that make him a better outfielder than Rasmus?

No, but it was a telling sign that Duncan was giving everything he had out there to make the play. Duncan just couldn't play well. Unfortunate but I wouldn't look any better out there. Thus neither of us are currently playing Major League Baseball (shocking I know!).

I was questioned to provide examples where Colby was dogging it, I did. I'll counter it with you providing some serious evidence that he doesn't. Show me some plays where Rasmus has done something brilliant, athletic, great heads-up, etc. I can't recall a single flash of brilliance, and thus, I don't have much of an opinion of the man's defense.

Bottom line? He's better out there than Duncan, but he's playing just about as RELIABLY as Ankiel (Who's considered garbage right?), and I'm noting his defense is sketchy. Disagree? Okay, show me a highlight. There isn't one.... Before I think he's a mediocre or good or great centerfielder, the guy will need to make a play. How is this disputed?

APIAD · 4/14/2011 3:38 pm

forsberg_us wrote:
I really don't get the "run into a wall" idea. Since when is running into a wall a smart play?

I saw Chris Duncan dive for a number of ball and run into several walls. Does that make him a better outfielder than Rasmus?

Max · 4/14/2011 3:43 pm

forsberg_us wrote:
Max wrote:
What is clear from that video is that Jay had the better route, the better chance to catch that ball, and ultimately was the guy with the ball in his hand. Without Rasmus in the picture, Jay probably would have caught that ball, the game would have been over, and we would have won. So, I guess you can say that it is true that on that play Corby gave too much effort, and lost the game for us in the process, because if Corby had just pissed his pants and fell on the field crying, we would have won.
I don't think that's what the video shows at all. If anything, the video shows that Jay took a poor route to the ball and that Corby took the correct route.

by the time they were approaching the ball, which either guy could have caught, jay was running face towards the ball , more or less perpendicular to it, and Rasmus was running face away from the ball, on nearly the same track as the flight of the ball.

there's something funny about eye hand coordination that makes it difficult to judge things moving more or less straight at you or directly away from you. i have read about it with reference as to why a bounce pass in BB is easier to catch than a chest pass. i think jay ran the better route and was in a better position to make the catch.

we'll just have to see as Rasmus's career progresses how is defense is judged.

alz · 4/14/2011 3:47 pm

Like I said, show me Rasmus putting his team in front of his body, laying out for a miraculous diving catch, going over a wall to rob an HR, or something heroic, and I may begin to consider him a solid defensive centerfielder.

To this point, he handles a majority of the undifficult plays without too much problem. If that's the best thing I can say about you defensively, then you are not a quality center-fielder....

forsberg_us · 4/14/2011 4:25 pm

alz wrote:
Like I said, show me Rasmus putting his team in front of his body, laying out for a miraculous diving catch, going over a wall to rob an HR, or something heroic, and I may begin to consider him a solid defensive centerfielder.

artie_fufkin · 4/14/2011 5:04 pm

"Show me some plays where Rasmus has done something brilliant, athletic, great heads-up, etc."

Off the top of my head, he left his feet last night and snagged a line drive in the RC gap. And the most memorable play he's made is that HR-saving catch on opening day last season.

forsberg_us · 4/14/2011 5:18 pm

Max wrote:
What do you call it when a second year player throws a hissy fit about his playing time and goes directly to the GM to demand a trade while his team is in first place if not vanity?

Immaturity. Insecurity. Not sure where vanity enters into it.

You knox Max, you're a strange dude. Kareem Abdul-Jabar was a standoffish prick for the better part of 30+ years, but he gets a pass because after all that time, he's supposedly changed his ways. Milton Bradley has been a collasal prick for over a half dozen teams, offers some BS mea culpa and everything is good. But Rasmus makes a single stupid mistake for which he later aplogizes, but in your mind he's an incurable, vain little snot. Makes perfect sense.

APIAD · 4/14/2011 5:25 pm

I am not convinced Rasmus isnt a vain little snot with daddy issues but Edmonds is a flaming metrosexual and it is a toss up between Rolen and Carp in term who is a bigger asshole. TLR beats both of those two in terms of being an asshole. I still like those guys and they are or have been great as Cardinals. Rasmus has alot of room to improve in terms of fielding but he is only 24. He has got a damn good start on his career.

forsberg_us · 4/14/2011 5:49 pm

100% agree on the "daddy issues," but I think that leads more to immaturity and insecurity than vanity. Rasmus has never had to do anything without his daddy. He's not overly bright, and he's undoubtedly learning that though he's a very good ball player, there are a whole lot of guys right now who are much better than him. His locker room experience has been less than pleasant, and he's playing for a manager who is far from warm and fuzzy. I'm guessing his ego was long ago checked at the door.

Max · 4/14/2011 6:47 pm

forsberg_us wrote:
alz wrote:
Like I said, show me Rasmus putting his team in front of his body, laying out for a miraculous diving catch, going over a wall to rob an HR, or something heroic, and I may begin to consider him a solid defensive centerfielder.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7287033

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12020317

. . .

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6505491

well done, fors. point made. i didn't watch them all because i got tired of watching those stupid silver bullet commercials. but i saw a couple that were good catches that required contact with the wall and/or turf. several were just ordinary catches on the run that high schoolers are supposed to make. but still, you have made your point.

Max · 4/14/2011 6:55 pm

forsberg_us wrote:
Max wrote:
What do you call it when a second year player throws a hissy fit about his playing time and goes directly to the GM to demand a trade while his team is in first place if not vanity?
Immaturity. Insecurity. Not sure where vanity enters into it.

You knox Max, you're a strange dude. Kareem Abdul-Jabar was a standoffish prick for the better part of 30+ years, but he gets a pass because after all that time, he's supposedly changed his ways. Milton Bradley has been a collasal prick for over a half dozen teams, offers some BS mea culpa and everything is good. But Rasmus makes a single stupid mistake for which he later aplogizes, but in your mind he's an incurable, vain little snot. Makes perfect sense.

What does "You knox Max" mean?

You are trying to fit everything into circles and squares.

First off, Kareem is a stand up person who would not spit on people and throw temper tantrums. He was and is quiet and thoughtful and introspective. So what if he was standoff-ish? You can tell from what Coach Wooden said about him that he was deeply sensitive about the abuse he took as an oversize black man living in Harlem. He became closed up. That's a lot better than yelling "bigot" at every sleight. But if you listen carefully Wooden acknowledges that Kareem seemed to come in for a fair bit of that and it bugged him.

Bradley is an ass. I hope for his sake he has turned over a new leaf. His swing looked awesome the other night.

Rasmus strikes me as more conceited and vain than immature, although his is probably all of that. Just as Bradley's antics--and indeed almost all public displays of a loss of temper--indicate that he is immature. His father seems to put it into his head that he should have been called up to the majors sooner than he was, that he should have been playing full time sooner than he was. If Rasmus believes the praise of an indulgent father into his 20's it's his fault, not his dad's.

Last edited by Max (4/14/2011 6:57 pm)

forsberg_us · 4/14/2011 7:10 pm

Max wrote:
What does "You knox Max" mean?

It means I don't type well on a Blackberry.

I think you seriously over-value Wooden's opinion. Find me one person for whom Jabar didn't win multiple national championships, and then we'll talk.

As far the rest of the stuff, how does that excuse Jabar's behavior to other players and people associated with the NBA. I'll go out on a limb and say Jabar wasn't the only person asociated with that league who was teased for being tall. And given that a majority of the league has been African American for a number of year, I doubt he was the only player who dealt with unpleasantries. But Jabar is a pariah among his peers and that says something.

artie_fufkin · 4/14/2011 7:16 pm

"Kareem is a stand up person who would not spit on people and throw temper tantrums."

No, he'd just slug them in the head when they weren't looking.

Max · 4/14/2011 7:16 pm

When I have heard Jabar speak, and have read interviews with him, he sounds like the kind of guy with whom I could be friends. Lots and lots of guys in the NBA seem like assholes, with whom I could not be friends. Throw in the fact that Jabar was #1 for quite a while and I am sure he made an easy target. I'm not surprised he doesn't get along with many others in the NBA. What does Magic say about him?

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