CardsFans » 6/24 Gamecrap

tkihshbt · 6/26/2011 5:36 pm

Okay then. I'll take your word for it.

Max · 6/26/2011 10:27 pm

Well, I see my post on another thread could have made it look like it was a dig about you and your fondness for him, but unless i am forgetting something, i don't think it is. Did you ever predict he was going to win RotY?

I just don't like his act. He's the anti-Pujols. And frankly, his value is probably less this year than it was this time last year. And that's not good. At the risk of starting a flame war, he's like a less talented JD Drew.

APIAD · 6/26/2011 10:38 pm

Are we faning the flames or talking about Rasmus effectiveness or lack there of? If it is the latter it is worth discussing.

Max · 6/26/2011 11:15 pm

Well, I joke about it AP, because he has been sold to us as this untouchable franchise player who, even though he asked to be traded because he was so unhappy, is nevertheless a core part of this team's future for many years to come. Instead, we get this streaky guy who doesn't play defense very well, can't throw worth a damn, and I wonder if he'll have any value at all after another year or two of this stuff.

Rasmus's home runs might travel farther than do Jay's, but they still count for exactly the same. The way things are, what does Rasmus do that Jay doesn't do better?

tkihshbt · 6/27/2011 7:50 am

At least this month anyway they are both terrific at sucking.

First, this:

he has been sold to us as this untouchable franchise player who, even though he asked to be traded because he was so unhappy, is nevertheless a core part of this team's future for many years to come.

You usually take issue with the Cardinals hyping their prospects, as if this front office is the first team to ever do such a thing.

Regardless, as long as he's producing, which he has done on and off for the past season and a half, he's going to be a part of the team.

People are completely overreacting to Rasmus having the worst month of his career, as if being in your third season means you are no longer allowed to have such slumps. How Jon Jay has managed to escape the ire of Cardinals fans is pretty remarkable, since he was hitting .220 in June a day ago and he's striking out once every four at-bats.

Last edited by tkihshbt (6/27/2011 7:51 am)

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 10:12 am

I don't remember anyone suggesting that Rasmus was a franchise player. What I recall was people saying that he was a better than average starting center fielder who would provide the team with some cost certainty during his pre-free agency years. His primary value was that for several years, he was the only position player in the organization who had a realistic chance at being a major league regular. So far, that's been a fairly accurate assessment.

I get frustrated with Rasmus' streakiness as well, but let's not suggest he's the first player we had on this team who was streaky. Rasmus isn't any streakier than Ryan Ludwick was. Even in his breakout 2008, Ludwick was .228/.298/.406 in June of that year. In 2009 Ludwick hit .186 in May, .200 in June and .238 in August.

For whatever reason, Rasmus has rubbed you the wrong way. That's fine and you're certainly entitled to your opinion about the guy. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "I don't like his act." What "act" are you talking about?

artie_fufkin · 6/27/2011 12:24 pm

"How Jon Jay has managed to escape the ire of Cardinals fans is pretty remarkable"

Because Jon Jay is a GOD!
(Too damn easy, TK.)

artie_fufkin · 6/27/2011 12:35 pm

"But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "I don't like his act." What "act" are you talking about?"

I'm assuming because he asked for a trade last year and he's not Jim Edmonds.
Rasmus is 25. He's in his third full year in the big leagues. He's got more home runs and RBI than Edmonds did at the same age. Is he Edmonds' peer defensively. Nope. But who is?
Edmonds really didn't get it until he was almost 30. The Angels got rid of him because he was a selfish player who was infecting the clubhouse with his attitude. Did we see any of that in St. Louis?
Give the kid a little time. He's an above average major league centerfielder. Let's hope everyone shows a little patience before they trade him for a latter day Kent Bottenfield, OK?

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 1:29 pm

"I'm assuming because he asked for a trade last year"

I assumed that was part of it, but wondered if there was more. Rasmus isn't the first player to request a trade, but setting that aside, so what? Rasmus was apparently unhappy regarding his playing time. Again, at the risk of sounding like I'm piling on Ludwick, I seem to remember that Ludwick bristled about his playing time and not being considered part of the "core players." I haven't heard anything about Rasmus having a negative impact in the clubhouse--to the contrary he was apparently the target of clubhouse negativity on the part of Ankiel and perhaps other veteran outfielders when he arrived in 2009. Granted, his dad's internet ramblings don't help matters, but I don't think you can blame Colby for the actions of his father.

Seriously Max, the way you get on Rasmus it's almost like he kicked your dog or refused to autograph something for one of your kids.

tkihshbt · 6/27/2011 1:36 pm

Yeah, my thought was that Max was irked by Rasmus asking for a trade. It's easy to see how that bugged people considering how Rasmus was doing nothing at the plate last July (and again into August), but there's been no rumblings that he or La Russa are unhappy with each other this year.

APIAD · 6/27/2011 5:27 pm

I find Rasmus annoying because of several reason. First he was pissy because he had to spend a yar in triple A. He thought he was to good for that. Then he cant get along on the major league club and ask for a trade after being on it for a year and a half. You are right at his dd has donehim no favors. I believe his dad suggested a trade while he was in triple A. I also agree that Rasmus is to important to this team to get rid of.

Max · 6/27/2011 5:58 pm

AP hit it. The thing with Rasmus began long ago when there were rumors that he was upset that was not being promoted to the big club. Their whole act, he and his dad, comes off as though they were owed the Rookie of the Year award. Now granted, I don't know much more than what I read, but the St. Louis sports press corp is a pretty forgiving bunch, so any criticism from them is more credible than, say, those that report on the Mets.

In all the hubbub, what has been lost here is that it is arguable that Rasmus does NOTHING better than Jay, I don't hear anybody really contesting that. My point is not that Jay is God, but rather: instead of thinking of Rasmus as some core player in the vein of Pujols, Molina, Carp, and Wainwright, perhaps he is better thought of as a core player in the vein of Skip Schumaker in that he will be valuable as long as he is cheap. But even at $2.7 million, Skip is no longer worth it. The big differences are that Skip can play defense, is less streaky, can't run, and can't hit the ball a long way, but does play the game the right way. Is the potential that Rasmus might hit a home run really worth the grief he gives the team?

I am not saying get rid of him, but let's get rid of this notion that we need to treat him with kitt gloves because he has the potential to be a breakout star. Maybe he still does, but even Pujols didn't get the hype that Rasmus has enjoyed since being drafted.

Max · 6/27/2011 6:02 pm

forsberg_us wrote:
Seriously Max, the way you get on Rasmus it's almost like he kicked your dog or refused to autograph something for one of your kids.

I get on him about the way I get on JD Drew. And I hope I am wrong about this, but it appears that Drew is the more talented of the two.

I have no dogs (got hit by a motorcycle remember?), and my kids don't ask for autographs. I have no personal beef with either Drew or Rasmus.

But frankly, if Rasmus played for the Cubs, we'd be on him like we were on Corey "Mr. Self-Important" Patterson.

Last edited by Max (6/27/2011 6:02 pm)

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 6:23 pm

I guess I just don't remember it the way you do Max. I remember after Spring Training 2008, Rasmus was disappointed that he didn't make the big club after a spring in which he hit over .300 and had an on-base percentage of almost .500. I don't remember him ever complaining about it, but could be wrong about that. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if his father did complain. But again, I don't hold Colby responsible for his dad.

Rasmus isn't Pujols or Holliday. He isn't a franchise player. But he's a much better player than Skip Schumaker and a much more reliable option that David Freese. And if you think Jon Jay is a better or even equal player, then suffice to say your ability to evaluate gets called into question. I've trumpted Jay's ability to be a 4th outfielder all along, but that's all he is--a very good 4th outfielder.

Max · 6/27/2011 7:46 pm

Fors, you focus on picking apart details and avoid the gist of the argument:

"I am not saying get rid of him, but let's get rid of this notion that we need to treat him with kitt gloves because he has the potential to be a breakout star. Maybe he still does, but even Pujols didn't get the hype that Rasmus has enjoyed since being drafted."

Bottom line, Rasmus has not successfully avoided the label that he is a prima donna type player, and has even fed that with his antics last year. I don't like prima donnas and, generally MLB culture has been strongly against prima donna-ism.

and FWIW, as of today, Jay equals or exceeds Rasmus in virtually every offensive stat, when adjusted for AB's, and the difference in defense is so obvious it's not even worth going there. So, looking at it from the perspective of today, we still seem to be talking about Rasmus's potential as a ballplayer, which might greatly exceed that of Jay, but not so much about Rasmus's actual impact on the field as of this moment.

tkihshbt · 6/27/2011 8:08 pm

and FWIW, as of today, Jay equals or exceeds Rasmus in virtually every offensive stat, when adjusted for AB's

I don't understand what this means. Rasmus has 313 plate appearances to Jay's 199. You're extrapolating Jay's numbers based on what was essentially a ridiculously awesome two weeks in May?

we still seem to be talking about Rasmus's potential as a ballplayer, which might greatly exceed that of Jay, but not so much about Rasmus's actual impact on the field as of this moment.

I don't understand why Rasmus hitting .270/.360/.500 a year ago is disregarded. I don't understand why him batting .280/.380/.440 through May is disregarded. I don't understand why everything Jay has done outside of July 2010/May 2011 is dismissed. This has nothing to do with production; it has to do with perception.

Max · 6/27/2011 8:31 pm

tkihshbt wrote:
This has nothing to do with production; it has to do with perception.

I couldn't agree more. Let me rephrase:

"I am not saying get rid of him, but let's get rid of this PERCEPTION that we need to treat him with kitt gloves because he has the potential to be a breakout star. Maybe he still does, but even Pujols didn't get the hype that Rasmus has enjoyed since being drafted."

tkihshbt · 6/27/2011 8:35 pm

Using perception is a lousy way to judge athletes.

APIAD · 6/27/2011 9:13 pm

pre 2010 I was anti-Rasmus

currently I am nutral Rasmus

in the future I hope to be pro- Rasmus

Fors is giving Colby a pass for his dads comments but I am not going to let him off that easy. He was a coaches son and up untill this year he has acted as such. I will agree that his dad hasnt help him gain many friends in the major league. If he was going to keep acting like he had before this year my opinion would be that he needs to go. His mouth has been a non issue this year. He had a bad month and there is alot of time to make up for it. He has got to dig himself out of this funk because the Cardinals need him to get hot.

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 9:21 pm

And I guess I just don't remember the exhorbitant hype. I'll admit, I expected Rasmus to be better defensively, but otherwise, he's been pretty much as advertised--a pure centerfielder who can hit about .280, hit 20+ HR, drive in about 80 RBI depending on where he hits in the order and steal 15 or so bases.

Year 2 was better than his rookie year and year 3 was better than year 2 until June.

The irony of what you're arguing is that when Rasmus says he wants to play everyday, you criticize him for being a prima donna, but if Larussa doesn't play him every day, you're critical that they're treating him with kid gloves. Make up your mind.

Max · 6/27/2011 9:27 pm

Not at all, Fors. Those are decisions for a manager to make, and not for a young player to comment on publicly.

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 9:35 pm

He didn't comment on them publicly. His trade demand was made privately to Moz. The media broke the story, but it isn't as if Rasmus went to Derrick Goold with his demands. But don't confuse facts with your perceptions.

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 9:49 pm

You're a big fan of Strauss. Here's his version.

"24Aught7: What's your latest opinion of the TLR/Rasmus/Mozeliak story you broke on the trade requests which did/didn't actually take place?

Are we seeing a PR cover story unfolding to protect organization interests in Rasmus while setting up TLR to be scapegoat & fan rationale to rebuild in off-season?

Joe Strauss: Here's the deal on Rasmus. Tell your friends so I don't have to retell it later.
The Rasmus camp was extremely unhappy earlier in the season. It reached a boiling point during the team's July series in Chicago when TLR threatened Raz' with an option or a trade before the non-waiver trade deadline. Rasmus responded by telling the manager then perhaps it would be best to send him someplace else. This wasn't the first time Rasmus had indicated a desire to be moved. Rasmus, who describes his relationship with Mo' as "tight," also made clear his discomfort to the GM, who assured him he was going nowhere despite the manager's comments.
La Russa confirmed Rasmus' two trade requests earlier this month when confronted by the report.
The front office chose to play semantics, correctly noting neither Rasmus nor his agent, Paul Cohen, tendered a formal trade request.
The relationship between the club and Team Rasmus has been a sensitive one for several years. At one point the Cardinals front office requested Rasmus' father, Tony, refrain from posting in various chat rooms.
The Sept. 5 report in the P-D created a national swirl when Albert Pujols spoke out forcefully on what he believed to be a day-old trade request. Told later the request was dated, Pujols modified his comments and later followed up with a positive meeting with Rasmus.
Terrified of a building controversy, TLR met with Rasmus after the Sept. 5 game. Mozeliak, who had left Busch Stadium, then spoke to Rasmus by phone. Since no formal request was ever tendered, the club suggested Rasmus deny the request, which the player dutifully did hours after the manager confirmed the report.
Some outlets without knowledge of the story reported Rasmus' denial as proof of it not happening. A rightsholder did the same as recently as Monday night. Some choose to report. Others prefer to play stenographer. (Many of the same outlets similarly turned tail when Scott Rolen refused to confirm his trade demand after the 2007 season.)
Rasmus' most recent trade request was made 2 months ago, which is why it appeared as a small part of a much larger story. Pujols' comments helped inflame it and set the organizational damage control in motion."

So for the record, according to the guy you call the best "reporter" who follows the Cardinals, it was TLR who first brought up the topic by threatening to have Rasmus traded or sent down, Rasmus responded by saying "fine, trade me" and went to Moz to complain. Everything remained quiet until Strauss broke the story. Larussa, not Rasmus, confirmed the trade requests. Rasmus did as he was told and denied the rumors.

Sounds like a real prima donna. The funny thing is that I think if any other player had done this, you'd probably be lauding him for taking a stand against authority.

artie_fufkin · 6/27/2011 9:59 pm

"what has been lost here is that it is arguable that Rasmus does NOTHING better than Jay, I don't hear anybody really contesting that."

Come on, Max. Rasmus has far more power than Jay. Jay will never be a 20-homer guy, unless he changes his entire approach at the plate, or he starts taking steroids.

forsberg_us · 6/27/2011 10:13 pm

C'mon Artie, there you go using facts to dispel perception. Don't you know that a small sample size is much more important than the last 2 years.

Index » Cardinals/MLB » 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

forsberg_us wrote:

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

tkihshbt wrote:

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Re: 6/24 Gamecrap

Index » Cardinals/MLB » 6/24 Gamecrap

Board footera

Index
» Cardinals/MLB
» 6/24 Gamecrap

Index
» Cardinals/MLB
» 6/24 Gamecrap