Webstergrovesalum wrote:

APRTW wrote:

Max wrote:

Notice Moz spread credit around for the trades.  Respect for Moz just went up.

It is easy to look smart when your team wins.  Westbrook, Loshe, Freese and all the players moved in the Rasmus trade look like good moves when headed to the WS.

"“IT'S BEEN MENTALLY EXHAUSTING. I DON'T KNOW HOW HE DOES IT.�  ;
'- INF Ryan Theriot, on trying to keep up with the many moves made by manager Tony La Russa.'"

That reads like it was said by someone who is fishing for a 2012 contract.
Maybe it's me, or maybe I'm just used to LaRussa by now, but I don't think he's been inordinately spectacular. He hasn't done anything wildly out of character, at least in the five games I watched. Last night I might not have let Scrabble out for a second inning, and I'm not sure I would have bunted Furkie the Drunkie with a 5-run lead in the top of the eighth, but I didn't see him falling out of trees and landing on his feet any more than he usually does.
At the same time, it's one thing for me to be sitting on my couch and saying "Jackson has nothing tonight. He ought to pinch-hit Craig here and Craig ought to hit an 11-hopper up the middle past a poorly-positioned shortstop with no range to begin with for two huge runs in the top of the third inning," and another to be in a visiting dugout in the 6th game of an NLCS and actually make that decision.

"The only thing that would have made the night complete is getting access to their locker room and hearing someone stand up and say "Morgan, Grienke.... This is what happens when you mouth off to an opponent when there's still a prayer they will see you again. Next time, shut the hell up."

Morgan is an ass, Greinke acted like a spoiled child, and the whole Beast Mode thing was overdone, but I don't have nearly the same level of enmity toward the Brewers as I do toward the Reds.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"The only thing that would have made the night complete is getting access to their locker room and hearing someone stand up and say "Morgan, Grienke.... This is what happens when you mouth off to an opponent when there's still a prayer they will see you again. Next time, shut the hell up."

Morgan is an ass, Greinke acted like a spoiled child, and the whole Beast Mode thing was overdone, but I don't have nearly the same level of enmity toward the Brewers as I do toward the Reds.

I agree with you, I would have felt the exact same had we been beating on the Reds in the NLCS. In truth, I have very little mercy when it comes to anyone in the division. Some people will root for the success of the division, or the league in general. I'm opposite of that. There's nothing that pleases me more than Cardinal success, but a close second is a divisional rival getting thumped.

tkihshbt wrote:

APRTW wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

Max, payroll does not correlate with what is now a 30-13 run and one of the worst collapses in baseball history. This has been a fun and rewarding postseason, but it shouldn't excuse what was otherwise a poorly-constructed and poorly-run team for the first five months.

Wasnt the Cardinals leading the division for 2 1/2 of those months?

They were in first from April 20 to May 13 and again over another stretch in late spring, but over June, July and August they were a combined 39-41. The Trade rectified their mistakes (bullpen, rotation, shortstop), but they played a ton of mediocre baseball. Even in April and May they were looking pretty flimsy.

They did do all that without Wainwright.  Sure it is lame to blame injuries but how good would you feel if it was Wainwright and Carp pitching in game one and two?  I dont think the team was built that badly.  Theriot turned out to be a glaring mistake.  Batista and Franklin hurt them.  More so I think the problems were just growing pains for some of the players we are enjoying the success of right now.  That and Berkman and Pujols showing there age at points during the season coupled with Holliday's injuries. 


Motte made comment post game about they new Cardinals from the Rasmus trade claiming the clubhouse was like a cemetery when they came over.  I believe that is a true statement.  They looked like they were dead on the field.  I started to think about why that was.  Berkman and Theriot were supposed to liven up the clubhouse.  Why did that wear off?  The grind of the season?  The grind of TLR personality?  Tension caused by Rasmus?  IDK but if they would have played with the passion that showed in the last month throughout the season this would have been a 100 ball club, easy.

artie_fufkin wrote:

That reads like it was said by someone who is fishing for a 2012 contract.
Maybe it's me, or maybe I'm just used to LaRussa by now, but I don't think he's been inordinately spectacular. He hasn't done anything wildly out of character, at least in the five games I watched. Last night I might not have let Scrabble out for a second inning, and I'm not sure I would have bunted Furkie the Drunkie with a 5-run lead in the top of the eighth, but I didn't see him falling out of trees and landing on his feet any more than he usually does.
At the same time, it's one thing for me to be sitting on my couch and saying "Jackson has nothing tonight. He ought to pinch-hit Craig here and Craig ought to hit an 11-hopper up the middle past a poorly-positioned shortstop with no range to begin with for two huge runs in the top of the third inning," and another to be in a visiting dugout in the 6th game of an NLCS and actually make that decision.

Not spectacular but it does have to be exhausting to go to the pen in the 2nd inning.  That is when managing becomes taxing.  That is even more true in the NL.  Getting the right pitchers up at the right time and schedualing it around the 9th place in the order gives me heartburn to even think about it.

artie_fufkin wrote:

I agree with you, I would have felt the exact same had we been beating on the Reds in the NLCS. In truth, I have very little mercy when it comes to anyone in the division. Some people will root for the success of the division, or the league in general. I'm opposite of that. There's nothing that pleases me more than Cardinal success, but a close second is a divisional rival getting thumped.

If the Cardinals were going to lose the division I wouldnt have minded the Pirates winning it.  I also really dont mind the Cubs.  However it is to much fun to root against a team so miserable.  Houston had a time when they were pieces of shits but I thought they were classly in Berkman, Biggo and Beltran's hayday.  Really the Reds and Brewers are the only team I truely hate.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"I have very little mercy when it comes to anyone in the division. Some people will root for the success of the division, or the league in general. I'm opposite of that."

It depends upon the team, I suppose. I'll never root for the Cubs. I'll never root for the Reds. I would have rooted for the Brewers in the WS had they won. When the Astros played the White Sox, I kind of passed on a rooting interest, but that had everything to do with my disdain for Roger Clemens. I suppose I'd root for the Pirates, but they have about as much chance of making it to the World Series as Columbia has of playing in the Sugar Bowl.
Outside the division, the only teams I really have animosity for are the Mets, Giants and Braves, but I think I'd probably pull for anyone but the Mets against an AL team in the World Series.
The only American League team I have any good feeling for is Tampa. I kind of like the notion they're able to compete in the same division with the Yankees and the Red Sox.

When I was about 6 or 7, I liked the A's because they were unstoppable on Nintendo. I used to pretend I was Charles Nagy in the mid-90s when the Indians caught fire. I've always respected Detroit, Baltimore and Minnesota.

I find it easier to root for AL teams than NL teams. I hate every team in the National League except the Pirates.

alz wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

alz wrote:

lol tk, at some point you're going to have to look at the results and try to forget about the path. Nobody wanted to sneak into the playoffs, nobody wanted to have to deal with Milwaukee winning the Central and trying to claw through Philadelphia.

I wasn't saying that I wasn't happy with the results; just that I thought Max was wrong in correlating the payroll to their success.

I should learn to read better, I missed your angle. I don't think we took on a crazy amount of payroll during the season. The Rasmus trade landed us Dotel, Scrabble, and Jackson but they were moderate amounts. Rhodes couldn't have cost us shit. Furcal on the other hand, I'm not sure. I heard someone say his 2012 contract option is 15 million dollars. He's worth about 8 in my opinion, but I have no idea how much of that the Dodgers ate to trade him to us.

Don't sweat it. I think the biggest salary they took on was Furcal's, who I'm hoping returns in 2012.

"who I'm hoping returns in 2012."

You and me both. I've really come to love Furcal over the last few months.

alz wrote:

"who I'm hoping returns in 2012."

You and me both. I've really come to love Furcal over the last few months.

Is he worth his 12 million option.  I dont think so.  That would mean the Cardinals vaule him as much as Berkman.  In my roster predictions I had him at 6 million.  He may have earned himself alittle more money since I made that prediction.  I would feel alright with the Cardinals giving him 8 million.

tkihshbt wrote:

Max wrote:

Take notice Bill DeWitt: you bumped payroll WAY up, went ALL in, and you have a team in the WS.

Max, payroll does not correlate with what is now a 30-13 run and one of the worst collapses in baseball history. This has been a fun and rewarding postseason, but it shouldn't excuse what was otherwise a poorly-constructed and poorly-run team for the first five months.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

APRTW wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

Max wrote:

Take notice Bill DeWitt: you bumped payroll WAY up, went ALL in, and you have a team in the WS.

Max, payroll does not correlate with what is now a 30-13 run and one of the worst collapses in baseball history. This has been a fun and rewarding postseason, but it shouldn't excuse what was otherwise a poorly-constructed and poorly-run team for the first five months.

Wasnt the Cardinals leading the division for 2 1/2 of those months?

No shit.  Coming out of the blocks in April we looked like a lock for the WS, even without Wainwright.  Look at how many bona fide stars, or players who should have been bona fide stars, or those who broke out as bona fide stars, we had our disposal.  And then look at how many options we had throughout the season to address problems as they arose.  That shit takes money.

And it takes the willingness to say in year one of a contract that Theriot is not good enough to play SS (compare for example with the Adam Kennedy deal, and how much time they spent trying to polish that turd).  So they fixed that midseason by getting Furcal.  It takes the willingness to say in year one that Westbrook is not the #3 SP they thought they were getting, and thus with McClellan in the rotation but wearing out, and with Lohse swinging like an erratic pendulum, they would go through stretches where they had 3 back of the rotation starters.  So they fixed it midseason in acquiring Jackson.

When you have some money to splash around, you're much less afraid to acknowledge having made an Adam Kennedy sized mistake, or even a Jake Westbrook sized mistake.  And that has been a BIG problem for the Cards since Jocketty left: every move had to work, because payroll was tight and front office jobs hung in the balance.

tkihshbt wrote:

alz wrote:

lol tk, at some point you're going to have to look at the results and try to forget about the path. Nobody wanted to sneak into the playoffs, nobody wanted to have to deal with Milwaukee winning the Central and trying to claw through Philadelphia.

I wasn't saying that I wasn't happy with the results; just that I thought Max was wrong in correlating the payroll to their success.

Da-da-da-dum!