For me, it's less about giving up on the season and more about not mortgaging future seasons that may be more prosperous.  If they can make a move that puts them in a better position this season AND seasons to come, then by all means go ahead and pull the trigger.  But I really don't want them to make a deal for Heath Bell or any other 2 month rental.  I agree with TK, this team is flawed and I'd prefer they make serious efforts to address their problems in the off-season than make knee-jerk reactions now, cross their fingers if they get lucky enough to make the playoffs and then find themselves in a worse position come 2012 because they shot their wad trying to salvage 2011.

I think it gets back to:

1. what we can do to improve, as compared to what out competitors can do, and
2. whether the improvements will be long-term, or whether they will be short-term rentals that hurt the long term.

We can't know now, but we'll probably get an indication as the days pass.  The scenario I am concerned about is what if the big names that we covet get scooped up by other teams, or worse, our rivals, and we find ourselves on July 31 with a picked over lot of trade possibilities, and Moz winds up under pressure to do something, rather than to do something helpful.

APRTW wrote:

This offseason is going to be a bitch for the Cardinals.  TLR is going to have to end his man crush with Skip and maybe Theriot.  I could see them bring back Theriot but I think they should go shopping.  Say Descalso takes over second and Craig takes over right.  They still have to find a SS, 2 lefties, deal with Pujols and Carp and add depth in the pen and middle infield.

Obviously, the first thing they have to resolve this off-season is Pujols. 

The Cardinals have options to wheel in deal in ways they haven't had in a while.  Will they or won't they keep Rasmus?  If not, what can they get for him?  If they keep him, do they try to move Jay or Craig.  Does Tyler Greene have some value to someone?  Boggs?  Lynn?  If Freese is the answer at 3rd, do they move Zack Cox?  What about Matt Carpenter?  Adams?  There are a lot of different options and while it may be a bit trying, I would think a GM might consider it an exciting challenge to see what he could come up with.

"I could see them bring back Theriot but I think they should go shopping."

Connect the dots with what Strauss wrote about them coveting a shortstop at the trade deadline and I'd assume the only way Theriot is back next year is as a second baseman. Scal is a cheaper and more versatile option than Schumaker, unless Raz or Jay are gone by Spring Training and they somehow need a fourth outfielder next year.
They still need to address shortstop, but obviously every other thing that happens in the off-season depends on #5.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"I could see them bring back Theriot but I think they should go shopping."

Connect the dots with what Strauss wrote about them coveting a shortstop at the trade deadline and I'd assume the only way Theriot is back next year is as a second baseman. Scal is a cheaper and more versatile option than Schumaker, unless Raz or Jay are gone by Spring Training and they somehow need a fourth outfielder next year.
They still need to address shortstop, but obviously every other thing that happens in the off-season depends on #5.

Here is the 2012 FA SS class

Yuniesky Betancourt MIL *
Ronny Cedeno PIT
Adam Everett CLE
Rafael Furcal LAD
Alex Gonzalez ATL
J.J. Hardy BAL
Cesar Izturis BAL
John McDonald TOR
Augie Ojeda ARI
Jose Reyes NYM
Nick Punto STL
Edgar Renteria CIN
Jose Reyes NYM
Jimmy Rollins PHI
Ramon Santiago DET
Marco Scutaro BOS *
Jack Wilson SEA


JJ Hardy is now off the market.  Reyes and Rollins are out of the Cardinals league if they sign Pujols.  It is limited and that is why I could see Theriot coming back.  Funny that Cotts doesnt even list Theriot as a short stop.

APRTW wrote:

Cotts list the payroll at 52 million for 2011.  That doesnt include Molina's 7 million option, Boggs, Motte, Greene, Descalso, Craig, Jay, Freese, Cruz, Salas or Sanchez.  Add another 25million for Pujols and you can see the budget is still pretty tight.

for 2012?

Where's Wainwright?

Their perennial weakness is the want of a leadoff batter who is worthy of batting in front of Pujols, and their frequent weakness is having two reliable lefties in the bullpen, but those weaknesses aside, they might not be terrible, particularly if they try to Craig at 2B option:

RF Jay (L)
2B Craig (R)
1B Pujols (R)
LF Holliday (R)
3B Freese (R)
CF Rasmus (L)
C Molina (R)
SS
Pitcher

SP Wainwright
SP Garcia
SP Lohse
SP Westbrook
SP McClellan

BP Sanchez
BP Salas
BP Motte
BP Boggs
BP Lynn

APRTW wrote:

They might not be bad but I doubt they are any better then they are today.  If Pujols keeps becoming human IDK what to think.  It is like he is starting all over again.  Double plays....little popouts with men at third.  It is getting old.

Pujols aside (and that K looked bad), one thing to consider is that the minor leagues suddenly produced real options in the form of Freese, Jay, Craig, Cruz, Sanchez, Salas . . . who else?  Throw Garcia in there, go back a bit further and include Motte, Boggs, McClellan.  Am I forgetting anybody?  If we can continue like this, there might be some good news coming.

Last edited by Max (7/20/2011 9:04 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

They have to re-sign Pujols because I don't want the last memory of him in a Cardinals' unifom to be this horrible season.

I dont want it to be 5 or 6 horrible seasons at double the price and the Cardinals not have a chance of winning.  I really dont think Pujols is as bad as he has been this year.  This contract crap is eating him up.  The guy who has had a perfect career first mistake was doing something he had never done before.  I dont think Pujols had ever played with money on his mind.

Reading Strauss chat forum today is an education in how helpless he believes the Cardinals front office are in terms of valuing their own players, with a subtext that it is a result of systemic dysfunction. 

"No one, including the player, is pleased with what Rasmus is showing the last couple months. The issue is what he will show in the future. It's extremely difficult for the club to wash its hands of a 24-year-old talent especially loved by some sabe-friendly metrics. What's difficult for the club to do is acknowledge that Rasmus may never be the player here that he may become with another location. To make such an admission would concede a far more complex matter than strikeouts, erratic defense and a depressed average.

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_6a1780de-b31b-11e0-860a-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1SiLCIn1v

FWIW, they need to make this admission, or at least pay lip service to it, because it would float Rasmus's trade value at a time when it is otherwise sinking.  So, someone within the organization should come up with the brilliant idea that they should all 'pretend' like they believe that Rasmus will never develop his talent here.

Last edited by Max (7/21/2011 12:22 am)

And my favorite:

"I found it interesting that team president Bill DeWitt III recently acknowledged that media and fans had perhaps overestimated Rasmus' ceiling. Unfortunately, no follow-up was asked whether the club was guilty of the crime first."

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_6a1780de-b31b-11e0-860a-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1SiMoW7lp