APRTW wrote:

Some of what Tony Rasmus said is likely true.  I think TLR needs alittle back talk on this one.  He is the one that threw Rasmus under the bus to the media.  Nothing else may be true but that is.

I've come to the understanding that I'm never going to understand Tony LaRussa. At least completely.
Only going from what I've read, I've also come to the conclusion that Colby Rasmus is the most decent person in this saga, and that he must have inhereted that trait from his mother.

Didn't Colby say "He hopes LaRussa is happy now"? Or was that someone else?

Doesn't sound like he's quiet.

I've come to hate Colby Rasmus, since I listened to Andy Van Slyke shredded him, and I began watching his play. Where his throws go, when he slides to break up a double play (never), when he lays out for a ball, when he makes a "plus" play vs how often he'll come up with a "minus".

I don't like that this trade had to happen. He has tons of talent, but so did Jamarcus Russell... What's a CF with minus defending, minus throwing, minus aggressiveness, minus heart, who's hitting .245 worth in a trade? =/ shrug...

artie_fufkin wrote:

"He has tons of talent, but so did Jamarcus Russell..."

Now that's just a gratuitous cheap shot.

lies, I love you Artie!

I thought about using Ryan Leaf, but Jamarcus actually made a life-coach quit. Think about that for just a moment. That's special on a level that's hard to even explain.

Yeah tons of articles on it, here's one for example.

http://thecovertwo.com/2011/04/life-coach-gives-up-on-jamarcus-russell/

Just amazing to even think about.

artie_fufkin wrote:

APRTW wrote:

Some of what Tony Rasmus said is likely true.  I think TLR needs alittle back talk on this one.  He is the one that threw Rasmus under the bus to the media.  Nothing else may be true but that is.

I've come to the understanding that I'm never going to understand Tony LaRussa. At least completely.
Only going from what I've read, I've also come to the conclusion that Colby Rasmus is the most decent person in this saga, and that he must have inhereted that trait from his mother.

and this latter point has been driven home by the classy approach he and his dad have taken to this whole thing.

Max wrote:

APRTW wrote:

Some of what Tony Rasmus said is likely true.  I think TLR needs alittle back talk on this one.  He is the one that threw Rasmus under the bus to the media.  Nothing else may be true but that is.

Even so, we don't know the backstory to why La Russa might have thrown Rasmus under the bus.  It's just possible that the case of clubhouse cancer Rasmus contracted from Brendan Ryan went systemic.

It's equally possible that Larussa is just a dick.

alz wrote:

I've come to hate Colby Rasmus, since I listened to Andy Van Slyke shredded him, and I began watching his play. Where his throws go, when he slides to break up a double play (never), when he lays out for a ball, when he makes a "plus" play vs how often he'll come up with a "minus".

I don't like that this trade had to happen. He has tons of talent, but so did Jamarcus Russell... What's a CF with minus defending, minus throwing, minus aggressiveness, minus heart, who's hitting .245 worth in a trade? =/ shrug...

Alz, you should probably not listen to Andy Van Slyke's opinion on anything.

And I've brought it up many times, but I have a real bugaboo when it comes to someone questioning someone's desire. AVS is not around the team any more than me or you, so his claim that Rasmus doesn't have any is just typical sports fan bullshit.

I *do* think he has mental lapses in the field and at the plate, but that those get fixed over time.

For some reason it's been ingrained in fans that Jon Jay is the poster boy for fundamental play, but last night he struck out looking, made a throw home that bounced behind the mound and failed to get a good bunt down. He's also missed signs and been picked off first base. I think if fans are under the impression that the Cardinals upgraded from a lazy hick to the center field version of Scott Rolen (my pick for the player who embodies fundamental play), then they are going to be wrong.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

APRTW wrote:

Some of what Tony Rasmus said is likely true.  I think TLR needs alittle back talk on this one.  He is the one that threw Rasmus under the bus to the media.  Nothing else may be true but that is.

Even so, we don't know the backstory to why La Russa might have thrown Rasmus under the bus.  It's just possible that the case of clubhouse cancer Rasmus contracted from Brendan Ryan went systemic.

It's equally possible that Larussa is just a dick.

both are possible.  not sure which one is more likely, or if the probabilities are equal.

i do know, however, that at each level of organizational heirarchy, the head of the unit is the boss and you either get along with him/her and do it his/her way, or you ship out.  hence, jocketty's firing in '07 makes sense in light of the story that he was not willing to go along with the new system/payroll that dewitt wanted to implement.   players need to work within their manager's system or they should expect to get moved out of it.  what's too bad here is that the Cards dithered until the situation became toxic and they wound up trading Raz for a slightly improved chance to win now, and really not much else, other than a left-handed bullpen pitcher.  that sucks.

but even in my description i tip my hand, and think that front office dithering is at least a culpable as Iron-Balls Tony.

"TLR likes guys to play the game a certain way. Respecting the game is part of it, but Tony wants the effort."

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but would point out that Larussa repeatedly shows horrible double standards on these types of issues.

Larussa takes exception with Rasmus reportedly going "outside the organization" to receive batting advice from his father, but Larussa never had an issue with Schumaker, Ryan or Holliday (perhaps others I can't remember) doing to same thing and seeking help from McGwire.

Larussa suggests that Rasmus wouldn't be in a prolonged hitting funk if he had simply listened to McGwire and Aldrete, but ignores that his shortstop (who is presumably listening to McGwire and Aldrete) is in a 2 for 40 slump.

You hear Larussa chirp about other players showing up his team or acting inappropriately, but he has never once criticized (at least not publicly) his own first baseman for taking considerable time to admire his own home runs.  Larussa has no problem providing an excuse for why Pujols or Molina don't run out ground balls.  Aren't these examples of disrespecting the game?  Or, at the very least disrespecting the other team?

forsberg_us wrote:

"TLR likes guys to play the game a certain way. Respecting the game is part of it, but Tony wants the effort."

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but would point out that Larussa repeatedly shows horrible double standards on these types of issues. . . . You hear Larussa chirp about other players showing up his team or acting inappropriately, but he has never once criticized (at least not publicly) his own first baseman for taking considerable time to admire his own home runs.  Larussa has no problem providing an excuse for why Pujols or Molina don't run out ground balls.  Aren't these examples of disrespecting the game?  Or, at the very least disrespecting the other team?

Two things about double standards:

1. we're all hypocrites.  one of my favorite quotes comes from Pol Pot, "My conscience is clear."  If HE can rationalize what he did, then I'm sure La Russa can, too.

2.  lots of stuff we don't know.  for example, for all we know, pujols has a chronic and disabling case of Plantar fasciitis, or something akin.  And what about Molina's knees?  If these guys had debilitating chronic injuries, you wouldn't want them running out hopeless ground balls, nor would you want to publicize it much.  But how much effort do these guys give in other phases of the game?  Are they taking BP, early to the park, late to go home, watching the videos, etc.?  Is it just that one phase of the game?  And most importantly are they doing bone-headed spaced out things in all phases of on field play?

I don't like this trade, and I agree with you that La Russa's comments kicked Rasmus out the door . . . and probably were designed to do that.  But none of that necessarily means that La Russa is any more of a  hypocritical dick than we all are, and that this is all his fault.

Last edited by Max (7/28/2011 3:28 pm)

forsberg_us wrote:

"TLR likes guys to play the game a certain way. Respecting the game is part of it, but Tony wants the effort."

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but would point out that Larussa repeatedly shows horrible double standards on these types of issues.

Larussa takes exception with Rasmus reportedly going "outside the organization" to receive batting advice from his father, but Larussa never had an issue with Schumaker, Ryan or Holliday (perhaps others I can't remember) doing to same thing and seeking help from McGwire.

Larussa suggests that Rasmus wouldn't be in a prolonged hitting funk if he had simply listened to McGwire and Aldrete, but ignores that his shortstop (who is presumably listening to McGwire and Aldrete) is in a 2 for 40 slump.

You hear Larussa chirp about other players showing up his team or acting inappropriately, but he has never once criticized (at least not publicly) his own first baseman for taking considerable time to admire his own home runs.  Larussa has no problem providing an excuse for why Pujols or Molina don't run out ground balls.  Aren't these examples of disrespecting the game?  Or, at the very least disrespecting the other team?

I would hope in addition to seeking help from McGwire, they were at least open to coaching from the clubhouse. Also, McGwire being begged to coach for years, and turning it down for so long makes him easier to understand.... Not saying he's right, but I can excuse that part.


For the rest? You raise excellent and very difficult points to argue against. I should expect that with you being a lawyer I suppose! I would require clubhouse knowledge that I simply don't have.
I dislike Pujols lack of hustle, and dislike that Molina is a LOT slower than he was 3 seasons ago. I'm beginning to wonder if Theriot doesn't have naked pictures of Larussa with an escort.

tkihshbt wrote:

alz wrote:

I've come to hate Colby Rasmus, since I listened to Andy Van Slyke shredded him, and I began watching his play. Where his throws go, when he slides to break up a double play (never), when he lays out for a ball, when he makes a "plus" play vs how often he'll come up with a "minus".

I don't like that this trade had to happen. He has tons of talent, but so did Jamarcus Russell... What's a CF with minus defending, minus throwing, minus aggressiveness, minus heart, who's hitting .245 worth in a trade? =/ shrug...

Alz, you should probably not listen to Andy Van Slyke's opinion on anything.

And I've brought it up many times, but I have a real bugaboo when it comes to someone questioning someone's desire. AVS is not around the team any more than me or you, so his claim that Rasmus doesn't have any is just typical sports fan bullshit.

I *do* think he has mental lapses in the field and at the plate, but that those get fixed over time.

For some reason it's been ingrained in fans that Jon Jay is the poster boy for fundamental play, but last night he struck out looking, made a throw home that bounced behind the mound and failed to get a good bunt down. He's also missed signs and been picked off first base. I think if fans are under the impression that the Cardinals upgraded from a lazy hick to the center field version of Scott Rolen (my pick for the player who embodies fundamental play), then they are going to be wrong.

I think Jay's gets better reviews because he is a player that is currently playing better then his hype.  Not to rehash the "hype" of Ramsus but I think now that he is traded it is fair to say his time in St. louis didnt match up to expectations.  In St. Louis a player who plays over his head gets more respect then a player who doesnt live up to expectation but still better then the over achieving player.