On Pujols, I don't want to get back into it, so I'll summarize. I'm jaded, and scared to death that he's leaving town. There are many people who profess he's staying, and he will happily tell you he wants to stay. I know there's no contract with his name on it that will ensure he's staying put. Until that exists, I'm skeptical. Not a lot of mega-superstars seem to stick around when they have to play out a contract year and get to free agency. Pujols is not a normal player however, so we'll see.

"Lohse is still within .03 points of Garcia for best ERA among the starters and he has only given up more than 3 runs once since July 19."

He's living off two good months at the start of the season and run support. He was mediocre in June, and he was shite in July and August. Since that 7-2 start, he's 6-6 with an ERA around 5.00, and the Cardinals have averaged six runs a game in his last eight starts. For a guy who was billed as an innings eater, he's gotten four outs in the seventh inning or later since the All-Star break.
For all I care, he and Westbrook can go wreck someone else's bullpen next season.

There's a lot of truth to what you just posted there Artie. I've found both of those guys very frustrating for most of the season. I'm still in favor of keeping Edwin Jackson around somehow and letting one of those clowns get lost, but I doubt that happens. Lohse could earn a lot of "Alz Bucks" if he beats Halladay somehow tonight.

The bottom line is that we need this win. Atlanta plays 3 games @Florida after getting thumped around by the Mets. No off day, and travelling. Let's hope they lose, let's hope we win. Coming out of Philly down 2 1/2 would really put the Wild Card in reach.

I think they both are average pitchers.  I could see someone taking Westbrook off our hands.  I believe he is only owed 8.5 million.  Nobody is going to take Loshe's 12 million unless the Cardinals eat 5 million of it.

When the Cardinals needed Lohse to step up against Pittsburgh last Monday, he gave them six crappy innings and exited the game having been lucky to surrender just three runs. That's unacceptable against a team that has won 16 games over the past seven weeks.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"He's better than Westbrook.  Period."

I don't disagree. Lohse frustrates me. Westbrook annoys me.

Still if Carp, Wainwright and Garcia preform as expected in 2012 Loshe and Westbrook make up a pretty good number 4 and 5 pitchers.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Is retaining Jackson even in the conversation? I know they'd have to eat either Westbrook's or Lohse's contract, but he's been worthwhile.

I agree. I like the guy. He's not lights out, but he's been highly reliable, and he's got really good stuff. I'm interested to see how he does with a full spring and season of Duncan's (should he ever return) tutoring. Whereas, I think we've seen the best of Westbrook and Lohse, and it does not inspire.

"He's better than Westbrook.  Period."

Not since the end of May.

Lohse- 4.90
Westbrook- 4.27

I'm not sure of the arbitrary significance of July 19, but as you point out, Lohse's ERA since then is 4.09.  Westbrook's is 3.61.

Lohse was much better than Westbrook in April and May.  As a result, Lohse's overall numbers are much better than Westbrook's.  But since June 1, Westbrook has been more than a half a run better per 9 innings.

APRTW wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"He's better than Westbrook.  Period."

I don't disagree. Lohse frustrates me. Westbrook annoys me.

Still if Carp, Wainwright and Garcia preform as expected in 2012 Loshe and Westbrook make up a pretty good number 4 and 5 pitchers.

yes, but they are being paid to be #3 innings eaters.

forsberg_us wrote:

"He's better than Westbrook.  Period."

Not since the end of May.

Lohse- 4.90
Westbrook- 4.27

I'm not sure of the arbitrary significance of July 19, but as you point out, Lohse's ERA since then is 4.09.  Westbrook's is 3.61.

Lohse was much better than Westbrook in April and May.  As a result, Lohse's overall numbers are much better than Westbrook's.  But since June 1, Westbrook has been more than a half a run better per 9 innings.

Good points, Fors, and I wasn't aware of how good Westbrook's ERA had been in that time span.  But the problem with both pitchers is that as team wins have become necessary, La Russa simply doesn't leave them in games anymore after the first sign of trouble appears.  This seems particularly true of Westbrook.  So, for both pitchers, their IP/start is probably not good since June, and i would guess that Westbrook's is worse than Lohse.  Thus, in both cases, their ERA over this period is artificially low, assuming that if La Russa were to work them 6.5 IP/start they'd have given up a lot more runs.

Max wrote:

APRTW wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"He's better than Westbrook.  Period."

I don't disagree. Lohse frustrates me. Westbrook annoys me.

Still if Carp, Wainwright and Garcia preform as expected in 2012 Loshe and Westbrook make up a pretty good number 4 and 5 pitchers.

yes, but they are being paid to be #3 innings eaters.

How does what they are being paid relate to how good the rotation is in 2012.  The Gaints are paying Zito way to much money but they still have one of the best staffs in the NL.

APRTW wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

OK, all Lohse has to do is beat Halladay tomorrow night.

I could also poop a 5lb gold turd and pay for my kids college.

"Lohse outpitches Halladay, Cards gain ground"

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AtS1zLEr3rKSmSso1zUYWqgRvLYF?gid=310919122

You keep making the comparison since June, which is no less arbitrary than July 19.  It is clear that Lohse had a very bad 6-7 week stretch there, but he has rebounded.  And he pitched very well this morning.

I kind of suspect a guy is injured when he pitches great for two months, than like shit for 7 weeks, then halfway decent for 2 months.  Could be a a statistical blip, but he was consistently awful for a while there.