artie_fufkin wrote:

Watch ESPN's doc on Bartman and it will re-ignite your disdain for the Cubs. What that poor kid went through was disgraceful. I've pretty much written off the entire sports scene in Chicago as a bad job.

Jordan's Bulls (about 88-ish to 1998
Walter Payton's Bears (about 1977-ish to 1986-ish)

"When you have some money to splash around, you're much less afraid to acknowledge having made an Adam Kennedy sized mistake, or even a Jake Westbrook sized mistake."

The Cardinals received cash considerations to off-set the difference in what they took on with Jackson/Dotel/Scrabble/Patterson compared to what they gave up in Rasmus/Miller/Tallet/Walters.  They didn't really increase salary in making the move when taking into account the cash that came back in return.

Similarly, the Cardinals received cash in the Furcal deal to offset at least some of what was due to him the last 2 months of the season.  The Dodgers paid $2.6M of the $4M remaining on Furcal's contract. 

The last move they made was to sign Arthur Rhodes.  That cost them 1 1/2 month at league minimum salary.

The Cardinals didn't fix their problems by throwing a bunch of money at them.  They probably didn't add $2M in salary when they added these 6 players.

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Watch ESPN's doc on Bartman and it will re-ignite your disdain for the Cubs. What that poor kid went through was disgraceful. I've pretty much written off the entire sports scene in Chicago as a bad job.

Jordan's Bulls (about 88-ish to 1998
Walter Payton's Bears (about 1977-ish to 1986-ish)

What's your point, Max? Chicago fans throw their support behind great teams with historically great players?

Do people willfully misunderstand, just to make arguments?

Opening day payroll:

2010: $93,540,753
2011: 105,433,572

That's a $12 million dollar bump (about 13% increase), BEFORE adding another $4-odd million mid-season.

DeWitt opened his pocketbook this year and they are going to the WS this year.  It's not a one-to-one correlation of course, but it is obvious that the Cards have far more bullets in their holster this season, and that they are far quicker to declare a bullet a dud if it doesn't fire than they have been in the past few seasons.

Last edited by Max (10/18/2011 12:43 pm)

forsberg_us wrote:

"Coming out of the blocks in April we looked like a lock for the WS, even without Wainwright."

We started the season 2-6 and lost series to San Diego (home), Pittsburgh (home) and San Francisco (road).  I'm not sure anyone felt we were destined for the World Series at that point

I think I mentioned something about how our start made us look like a WS contender.  Consider, by the end of May. Lohse was 7-2 with a 2.13 ERA.  On May 30th, McClellan entered the day 6-1 with a with a 3.11 ERA. Entering the game on May 28, Garcia was 5-0 with a 1.93 ERA.  The offense, even without Albert firing on all cylinders was at or near the top of the league in run production.  If someone made the assumption based upon two months of games that Lohse, McClellan, and Garcia were all for real, that Carp and Pujols would come around, then all we really needed to fix was the bullpen, and we had expendable chits like Rasmus to go out and fix that. 

So, I don't know what you guys remember of the first two months, but iI remember that, except for Pujols and Carp, we were on fire.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Watch ESPN's doc on Bartman and it will re-ignite your disdain for the Cubs. What that poor kid went through was disgraceful. I've pretty much written off the entire sports scene in Chicago as a bad job.

Jordan's Bulls (about 88-ish to 1998
Walter Payton's Bears (about 1977-ish to 1986-ish)

What's your point, Max? Chicago fans throw their support behind great teams with historically great players?

Well, Chicago sports fans support those teams through thick and thin, but I was responding to your comment "the entire sports scene in Chicago as a bad job."  The teams I mentioned were good teams that were winning for the right reasons.  Definitely teams I could get behind, as opposed to say, Bill Belichick's Patriots or Pat Riley's Knicks.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

The Cardinals didn't fix their problems by throwing a bunch of money at them.  They probably didn't add $2M in salary when they added these 6 players.

Not counting the $12 million they added before the season began.

I'm not sure how you think this helps your point. Where did that money go, and how much did it contribute to the success?  Let's recap the off-season moves:

Berkman- $8M. The one move that worked.
Westbrook- $16M/2 years.
Theriot- $3.5M
Batista- $1M
Tallett- $.8M
Punto- $.75M (good move, but hurt too much to make a major contribution)
Laird- $1M

They made one really good off-season signing with Berkman. Two of the signings are no longer with the team and one was left off the LCS roster.

Funny you point to April and May without pointing out that same team was floundering by the end of July. For everything that Berkman brought to the table, this team doesn't win without the July/August moves which had nothing to do with taking on extra cash.

forsberg_us wrote:

Funny you point to April and May without pointing out that same team was floundering by the end of July.

Fors, pull your head out of your ass and start paying attention.  That comment was to agree with AP, who contested TK's claim: "This has been a fun and rewarding postseason, it shouldn't excuse what was otherwise a poorly-constructed and poorly-run team for the first five months."

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Funny you point to April and May without pointing out that same team was floundering by the end of July.

Fors, pull your head out of your ass and start paying attention.  That comment was to agree with AP, who contested TK's claim: "This has been a fun and rewarding postseason, it shouldn't excuse what was otherwise a poorly-constructed and poorly-run team for the first five months."

I know exactly what you were responding to.  The same team that played well in April and May, sucked balls in June and July.

Let's make it simple--if someone builds a house, and the house is functional for 2 months, but in month 3 the roof begins to leak and parts of the dry wall fall apart and then in month 4 the house collapses, was it poorly constructed when it was first built or was it only poorly constructed in the 4th month?

forsberg_us wrote:

Let's make it simple--if someone builds a house, and the house is functional for 2 months, but in month 3 the roof begins to leak and parts of the dry wall fall apart and then in month 4 the house collapses, was it poorly constructed when it was first built or was it only poorly constructed in the 4th month?

Yeah but this house is playing in the World Series.  Sure there were fualt that should have been seen with this club but there is with every club.  I was happy with the opening day roster.  I am happy with the roster today.  I gave Theriot more credit then I should have and didnt give Furcal enough. Still it is hard to bitch about the roster or payroll when the Cardinals are one of two teams not at home raking leaves right now.  And this all happend with one of the best 5 pitcher in the majors on the roster.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Funny you point to April and May without pointing out that same team was floundering by the end of July.

Fors, pull your head out of your ass and start paying attention.  That comment was to agree with AP, who contested TK's claim: "This has been a fun and rewarding postseason, it shouldn't excuse what was otherwise a poorly-constructed and poorly-run team for the first five months."

I know exactly what you were responding to.  The same team that played well in April and May, sucked balls in June and July.

Let's make it simple--if someone builds a house, and the house is functional for 2 months, but in month 3 the roof begins to leak and parts of the dry wall fall apart and then in month 4 the house collapses, was it poorly constructed when it was first built or was it only poorly constructed in the 4th month?

If a house is built and is functional for two months, and lightening strikes and it falls over into the swamp and burns, and then is rebuilt two months later, was it poorly constructed?

06/20/2011     Albert Pujols     15-Day DL    Fractured left wrist - out 4-6 weeks
06/13/2011     Eduardo Sanchez     60-Day DL    Strained right shoulder
06/08/2011     Allen Craig     15-Day DL    Right knee contusion
06/01/2011     Matt Holliday     15-Day DL    Strained left quadriceps
05/31/2011     Kyle McClellan     15-Day DL    Flexor strain, left hip
05/23/2011     Gerald Laird     Day-to-Day    Broken right index finger
05/23/2011     Gerald Laird     15-Day DL    Broken right index finger
05/22/2011     Matt Holliday     Day-to-Day    Left game- Left quadricep tightness
05/18/2011     Lance Berkman     Day-to-Day    Left game - Right wrist soreness
05/18/2011     Matt Holliday     Day-to-Day    Left game - Left quadricep tightness
05/18/2011     Nick Punto     15-Day DL    Right forearm flexor strain
05/11/2011     Ryan Theriot     Day-to-Day    Oblique soreness
05/06/2011     Ryan Theriot     Day-to-Day    Left game - Bruised left shin
05/02/2011     David Freese     15-Day DL    Fractured left hand

Last edited by Max (10/18/2011 7:56 pm)

APRTW wrote:

One more thing.  the Cardinals have been in the WS 3 times in 7 years.  I think it is time to give credit to all involved.  They didnt make it to the WS in spite of their manager and GM.

Having Pujols doesn't hurt.  And that can't be credited to anyone (except the man, himself), since about 10,000 guys were drafted in front of him, by people who now sit at the end of the bar drinking, silently cursing life, while justifying their actions to anyone who will listen.

Last edited by Max (10/18/2011 8:19 pm)