artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

I don't even want to talk about 2012 right now. I'm still fucking pissed at Pujols. I'm pissed at Lozano. I'm pissed at Arte Moreno. I'm even pissed at Victor Rojas, who emceed that friggin' dog and pony show yesterday.

I'm guessing you didn't buy his "it wasn't about the money" speech.

"Do I want to be in St. Louis forever? Of course. People from other teams want to play in St. Louis, and they're jealous that we're in St. Louis because the fans are unbelievable. So why would you want to leave a place like St. Louis to go somewhere else and make $3 million or $4 more million a year? It's not about the money. I already got my money. It's about winning, and that's it."

What's the day, month, and year on that quote?

Furcal's worth close to 7 million a season if he can hit and hold .250, so we'll see how he hits. He spent a lot of time injured last season. His defense is far far far far far better than Ryan's, it's not even close.

I'm still not against a 5 year deal with Fielder, or a REALLY solid OF.

forsberg_us wrote:

My guess is that the Nick Punto era ended when the re-signed Furcal.  Unless Greene gets worked into a trade, Greene provides a cheaper option to Punto with a different skill set.  Punto's better defensively, but Greene offers better speed and power.

They paid Punto $750,000 last year.  I hope the teams doesnt make it decisions over $250,000.

APRTW wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

My guess is that the Nick Punto era ended when the re-signed Furcal.  Unless Greene gets worked into a trade, Greene provides a cheaper option to Punto with a different skill set.  Punto's better defensively, but Greene offers better speed and power.

They paid Punto $750,000 last year.  I hope the teams doesnt make it decisions over $250,000.

$250,000 plus the fact that if you don't find a place for Greene you lose him (unless you trade him), plus the fact that Greene still has supporters on the team. I think it adds up to Punto going elsewhere. Just my opinion.

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I'm guessing you didn't buy his "it wasn't about the money" speech.

"Do I want to be in St. Louis forever? Of course. People from other teams want to play in St. Louis, and they're jealous that we're in St. Louis because the fans are unbelievable. So why would you want to leave a place like St. Louis to go somewhere else and make $3 million or $4 more million a year? It's not about the money. I already got my money. It's about winning, and that's it."

What's the day, month, and year on that quote?

According to Miklasz, LeBron said that in 2009. Bernie doesn't indicate the month, day, time or weather.

VEB does a good job at looking at how Beltran would find at bats.  They also used WAR to value him at 1 year 15 million or 2 year 27 million making him a bargin for what he would likely get.  I figure the Cardinals would be alright giving him 10million.


"Perhaps the most important question is how do you fit Beltran into the current team's structure with three everyday outfielders and a dedicated first baseman already on the roster. Let's try and rack up as many games for Beltran as we can.
•RF: With Craig having surgery and questionable to be ready on time, the Cardinals can hedge their bets with Beltran. Let's assume that he gets the first 15 games of the season in RF because Craig isn't fully recovered. Of the remaining 147 games, we'll allocate 10% or 16 games. That leaves Craig with 131 games in RF. Beltran gets 31 games.
•CF: Jon Jay's first season as the de facto centerfielder will be interesting. Concerns over his BABIP are realistic given his plate discipline. Assuming he hits at league average and continues to play above average defense, there's little reason to penalize him too harshly using Beltran who doesn't have the CF chops he used to. Beltran is slightly better as a right handed hitter than a left handed one but doesn't feature a large platoon split. Let's say that between days off for Jay and "hard to hit" left handed pitchers, Beltran picks up about 30% of the playing time in centerfield or about 48 games.
•LF: You want Matt Holliday in the lineup as much as possible. Over 8 seasons, he's averaged 142 games a year. We'll allocate 10% of LF appearances to Beltran for another 16 games.
•1B: Berkman at first base won't need many days off but when he does you could move Craig to the infield and stick Beltran in RF again. We'll say that Beltran picks up another 10% of the season this way for 16 games.
•DH: The Cardinals have six away games in the AL on their schedule next year. Got to have a DH.

So assuming no massive injuries to anyone, you can easily come up with 117 games (~70% of the season) for Beltran to find playing time. My point is not to convince you that the above break down is absolutely right but merely plausible. It also provides us with a PA threshold (we'll add in 5% for pinch hitting appearances bring him up to 75% or around 500 PAs) to use in our offensive valuation calculations"

tkihshbt wrote:

I stand by Beltran being a solid addition.

I still like Michael Cuddyer but he doesnt help the cf situation.  He does add infield depth.  Looks like his value is around 3/30.  A bit of an over payment IMO.  I dont see any player I am to thrilled about seeing the Cardinals tie multi years in.

alz wrote:

Furcal's worth close to 7 million a season if he can hit and hold .250, so we'll see how he hits. He spent a lot of time injured last season. His defense is far far far far far better than Ryan's, it's not even close.

I'm still not against a 5 year deal with Fielder, or a REALLY solid OF.

The last time I saw the defensive metrics, Ryan was way out in front of all other SS, with no one a close second, but A) those don't mean much, and B) I haven't seen them after this season.

Furcal played more like a veteran and has a rocket arm, but I recall him making a few oddball errors, and he's not very durable.  It seemed to me Ryan had greater range and more energy, but maybe made a few more boneheaded plays.   On offense they are a wash, Furcal has a bit more power, Ryan a bit higher BA.

But it's pure sour grapes for me to even bring this up, as we're not likely to ever see Ryan in a Cardinal uniform again.

Last edited by Max (12/12/2011 1:23 pm)

Max wrote:

APRTW wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

He still can't, but he can stand out there every few games or so.

Seems stupid to sign someone and expect him to play out of position.  IMO, He can still play CF.  If I am wrong then you cant put him out there or it will cost them games.

I don't think of moving a CF to RF as being played out of position, even in the way that moving a SS to 2B is; rather, it is giving him an easier assignment.

Now whos not following the story line?

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Do I want to be in St. Louis forever? Of course. People from other teams want to play in St. Louis, and they're jealous that we're in St. Louis because the fans are unbelievable. So why would you want to leave a place like St. Louis to go somewhere else and make $3 million or $4 more million a year? It's not about the money. I already got my money. It's about winning, and that's it."

What's the day, month, and year on that quote?

According to Miklasz, LeBron said that in 2009. Bernie doesn't indicate the month, day, time or weather.

Well, there you go.  Benedict Arnold was still fighting for the good guys in 1777, but a couple years later after Congress had pissed him off badly enough he switched sides.  That doesn't mean that the genuine patriotism Arnold displayed in Canada and Saratoga was a sham, it means he had his vanity and it was greatly offended. 

Why on Earth would DeWitt practically taunt Pujols, unless DeWitt himself is a megalomaniac?

APRTW wrote:

I wish the Cardinals could get on Ramirez trade but it doesnt seem likely with them signing Furcal and not having the kind of talent the Marlin would want.

But why did he stink so badly last year?

"Benedict Arnold was still fighting for the good guys in 1777"

That you're comparing LeBron Pujols to Benedict Arnold probably undermines an assertion he approached these negotiations in a genuine manner.

"Why on Earth would DeWitt practically taunt Pujols, unless DeWitt himself is a megalomaniac?"

If offering a player a $210 million contract is a taunt, I'm going to march into my boss's office right now and ask him to taunt me. DeWitt at the end of the day had two choices - pay Pujols "ARod Money" (supposedly what he asked for before Pujols - not DeWitt - shut down negotiations before the beginning of the season) and skimp on the rest of the roster, or let Pujols walk and continue to field a contending team. LeBron put that gun to DeWitt's noggin, not the other way around.
LeBron couldn't or wouldn't grasp the notion that he'd get his ARod Money AND the team would continue to retain players like Wainwright and Molina. Not in St. Louis. The Cardinals don't have a $3 billion TV deal. The Cardinals have  debt on their stadium the Angels don't. They can't compete financially with the Yankees, the Red Sox or the Angels. They brought in Holliday partly because LeBron wanted proof DeWitt was sincere about fielding a contending team. LeBron is "somehwere else" mostly because he wanted the $3 million-$4 million a year he said didn't matter.

Max wrote:

And speaking of that, your idea to make a play for Upton sounds worthy of further consideration.

I wish Upton could raise his BA.