"The team is clearly rebuilding"

According to whom? Their rotation for 2012 is set, with the pitcher who won the most games in 2010-11 coming back. Their bullpen is one lefty reliever away from being set. Their infield is set, if they're sincere about playing Descalso at seocnd base. They have the best catcher in the National League. Two-thirds of the opening day outfield is set, and they get Craig back in around mid-May at the latest.
They obviously won't produce as much offensively without LeBron, but on 12/12/11 they're certainly better off than any team in the division and probably all but five in the entire major leagues. They're not rebuilding.

APRTW wrote:

Max wrote:

APRTW wrote:

I wish the Cardinals could get on Ramirez trade but it doesnt seem likely with them signing Furcal and not having the kind of talent the Marlin would want.

But why did he stink so badly last year?

Shoulder issues.  I would take the risk on a guy his age.  he owed 15-16 million a year over the next 3 years.  The Cardinals can afford that now and still spend next year.

Makes no sense for the Marlins to deal Ramirez after all the moves they just made. And the owner loves him.
Ramirez is supposedly a lousy guy in the clubhouse. As is Upton, by the way. If anyone thinks Rasmus needed a nanny, those two need nursemaids.

"Has this twisted logic infected everyone on this board?"

No. Just you.

"That doesn't mean the love and respect that was shown before the break were just a sham."

So you're finally agreeing what Pujols said about his priority being championships and not money was all a farce?

APRTW wrote:

Max wrote:

And speaking of that, your idea to make a play for Upton sounds worthy of further consideration.

I wish Upton could raise his BA.

good point.  Jay had a higer OPS.  forget upton. 

we live in a weird age, bereft of dominant CFers.  At least ones we can conceivable get our hands on.

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Benedict Arnold was still fighting for the good guys in 1777"

That you're comparing LeBron Pujols to Benedict Arnold probably undermines an assertion he approached these negotiations in a genuine manner.

We would need a whole separate thread to discuss Benedict Arnold, to whom we all owe a large part of our freedom.  Washington saved the revolution from dissolution with Trenton and Princeton; Arnold made British acceptance of American independence virtually inevitable with his uncredited victory at Saratoga.

It's a moot comparison in the first place. Arnold defected because he felt he didn't receive the acclaim and promotion he deserved. LeBron got nothing but acclaim and adulation, yet he chose to defect regardless. LeBron leaving St. Louis is be kind of like George Washington turning his back on the U.S. and opting to become King of Costa Rica.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Has this twisted logic infected everyone on this board?"

No. Just you.

"That doesn't mean the love and respect that was shown before the break were just a sham."

So you're finally agreeing what Pujols said about his priority being championships and not money was all a farce?

This is just a guess, but I think that there were three periods:

1) before the '09-'10 offseason there was young naive Pujols, thinking he was gonna be a Cardinal for life.

2) until the 2011 began there was maturing Pujols, thinking he'd be a Cardinal for life, but that it was going to require learning how to operate among the Cardinals suits. 

3) once the 2011 season began, and the Cards had lowballed him yet again, I think we began to see cynical Pujols, who questioned all his romantic notions about baseball, and who resolved to determine what his free market value was, and see how the Cardinals would respond.  Reading the morning after analyses, it sounds like the Angels spent the day wooing him, and the Cards spent the day talking business.  In that climate, it's very easy to make an otherwise tough decision: 1) tough prickly business man offers $40 million less, 2) warm cuddly family-figure offers $40 million more.

Hello?!?  Where's the choice in that???

artie_fufkin wrote:

"within 2-3 years we might expect that the only holdover from 2006 will be Wainwright."

Seven or eight years isn't a long time in the free agency era to turn over almost an entire roster. The only two players left from the 2004 team are Carpenter and Molina, and there's no one left from the 2003 team.

Yes, but we have had a period of very stable leadership, with Pujols Molina and Carp all being on the 2004, and Pujols and Carp being stars of that team.

"his bosses ... made subtly disprespectful comments and actions"

If you're going to ask me for the day, date and time of LeBron's comments about wanting to stay in St. Louis, I have to ask you who subtly disrespected him and when?
So what you're suggesting that the fans, the press and the manager stroking LeBron's ego wasn't enough for him, but ownership needed to jump on board the "Albert, we love you" bandwagon as well? Who lives in a world like that?

artie_fufkin wrote:

"his bosses ... made subtly disprespectful comments and actions"

If you're going to ask me for the day, date and time of LeBron's comments about wanting to stay in St. Louis, I have to ask you who subtly disrespected him and when?
So what you're suggesting that the fans, the press and the manager stroking LeBron's ego wasn't enough for him, but ownership needed to jump on board the "Albert, we love you" bandwagon as well? Who lives in a world like that?

Albert Pujols.

Yes, he did not want to work for a boss who perceived to be disrpectful.

"year" was sufficient, given that it was 2009.  Had it been 2011, month and day might have been informative.

List of disrespect:

Bernie gets the list going.  I'll add a couple of points that I think are key:

1. saying you want to extend after '09, and then again after '10, and not making a bona fide process out of it (coming in last minute with a lowball offer is a businessman's way of saying, "see you next year").  What I would like to see is the quote about the Card FO saying 'the ideal time to extend Pujols" and I believe they first said after '09, although i could be wrong.  If that is the case, why didn't they even make an offer?

2. Making the public statement that Pujols would not be paid for past effort.  Why the fuck do that?  It's stupid and disrespectful, especially given the fact that Pujols was working for less than Holliday at that point.  Why not just make an offer and keep your reasoning to yourself?

artie_fufkin wrote:

"I think the rumor mill has settled on $198/9 for the offer, and as it turns out, it was a lowball offer ... So, it's like offering to pay $2.50 for gas, and saying that's not a lowball offer"

If that's the figure, then Pujols would have still been the second-highest paid player in the history of baseball. I don't know how that qualifies as "lowball" under anyone's definition but yours and LeBron's.
And, let's not forget, LeBron said in 2009 he already has enough money. It was about winning championships, right?

Four other teams topped that offer, Artie.  The lowest of those was the Cards final offer, the next lowest was $225/10.  So it was a lowball offer, and a pretty bad one at that.

Once again, find the date of the "winning championships" statement.  I recall that was before Holliday was even acquired, and we had sucked for two years in a row.

"Four other teams topped that offer, Artie."

Fine. But it's not about money. Pujols said so. His wife said it's about being treated like a human being, not being disrespected like he was in St. Louis with all those fans booing him and the press constantly hammering him for not running out ground balls and generally being perceived as a pariah within the community. It was about feeling like he was part of a family. The $254 million contract was inconsequential.

And one last thing before I either move on or become completely obsessed. If Pujols signs that 10-year deal with the Cardinals, his legacy is secure. He's allowed to finish his career gracefully, he retires with numbers exceeded by no other player in the history of the franchise and, as was pointed out earlier, lives out the rest of his life as the Cardinals' most iconic figure.
What happens in Anaheim when he's 41-years-old and still hanging on? Will AngelFan be as forgiving, knowing that he's accounting for $25 million of their payroll?
Either way, he was going to earn more money than he could ever spend in his life. The price tag of Pujols' integrity was $34 million.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Yes, he did not want to work for a boss who perceived to be disrpectful."

Does anyone? Sometimes the boss sucks. We put up with him or her because he or she pays us and we buy groceries with the money we earn. Welcome to the real world.

"Bernie gets the list going"

I don't understand. Are you suggesting Bernie is the one who has been disrespectful, or he's compiled a list of people who have been disrespectful to LeBron? It's not Bernie's job, nor is it DeWitt's job, as Bernie says, to wash LeBron's feet.
And I don't know much about Arte Moreno, but I know people in professional baseball organizations eventually sour on the idea of paying $25 million a year to a player who doesn't produce. Once LeBron's age catches up with him and he puts up his first .250/20/75 season under that contract, whichever Angels' general manager whose job is based on wins and losses isn't going to be saying "Well, I know Albert's skills are eroding, but we promised him a family atmosphere when we signed him all those years ago and it wouldn't be right to disrepect the spirit of the negotiations."

Bernie gets started on making the list of disrespectful moves, and Bernie, too, is a bit bemused as to why the Cards bungled things so badly when they knew they had a sensitive star who valued being treated respectfully.