tkihshbt wrote:

Bernie nailed it. Absolutely nailed it.

It was mostly a fair piece, although I read more intently the parts where Bernie puzzled over why the Cards front office didn't do a better job.

In the end I think that the answer to Bernie's last question, the answer that leaves Pujols's integrity intact, is "yes".  He would have given deWitt the home town discount had DeWitt not been such a cold-prickly hard-nosed jackass about the whole process.  It wasn't about the money, it was about not giving in to DeWitt and working for him on his terms.  In the end Pujols may come to have deeply divided thoughts about his decision that day, and if he does I hope he does as I do and blames DeWitt for being a megalomanic jack-ass.

So, I don't agree with Bernie's conclusions, because I think that, as convenient as it is to dump hard feelings on Pujols and criticize him as an overly sensitive, greedy, hypocrite, I think the data better fit a more parsimonious answer: that he is merely oversensitive.

APRTW wrote:

Is this true?

"4. Why would you resent the seven-year, $120 million contract given to Matt Holliday when you vocally challenged management to show that they were serious about fielding a consistent contender?

I was wondering about that, too.  I suspect this is something that a pro-DeWitt PR company is inventing or blowing up.

alz wrote:

At one point I made a shitty flippant comment and followed it with more "high and mighty" crap. Artie immediately lit me up, because my tone made it seem like I was certainly smarter than everyone else, and he was "clearly intelligent enough to understand my point". I see now why it lit him up like that, even though I was really just storming off and didn't mean what I said, or how I decided to throw it out there. I was just popping off, in a shitty mood. Turns out we have this in common, neither of us like feeling like someone considers us so goddamned stupid that they can just fire out whatever spin bullshit they see fit, and expect us to buy it.

Is this pointed at me?  TK just accused me of acting like I think I am smarter than everybody else.  I think others form their own opinions, and with that in mind, I'm sure as hell not changing my opinion because lots of people think this way or that way.  That doesn't mean I think I am smarter than anybody else, it just means that I'll make up my own mind, and I assume many others will do that, too.

"Is this pointed at me?"

I'm assuming since my nom de borde was in it, it was directed at me, from something that happened several weeks ago.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Is this pointed at me?"

I'm assuming since my nom de borde was in it, it was directed at me, from something that happened several weeks ago.

I should probably stay out of this and let Alz answer for himself, but the way I read what he wrote, I think it was directed at Albert and Didi and their pontificating.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

One last point.  As far as the "it should never have gotten this far," perhaps it's fair to dump some of that on DeWitt, but let's not forget that it was Pujols and his agent who imposed the January deadline on negotiating a new deal.  Plenty of players work out deals during the season without distraction.  If Pujols REALLY wanted to be here, there wasn't any reason to impose a deadline.

But in fairness to Pujols just as the marlins have a longtime policy of not offering no-trade clauses, didn't Pujols have a longstanding policy of no negotiations during the season?  That is, the Cards knew going back several years that it would need to get done before opening day, and they waited until almost the last minute, then low-balled him.  Then after the season, unknown to us, they were doing everything people on this board were saying would be too stupid and disrespectful to do, like removing last years offer and coming back with a smaller one, and then playing 'squeeze the blood from a rock' until the negotiations became like Chinese water torture.

I don't recall the same timeline. I recall there were negotiations at some point last year, Pujols set a deadline and said there would be no further contract talks during the regular season.

yeah I was simply making a cross reference to spin, not pointing at anyone. Best example was a dickhead moron post I made. I didn't feel my awesome view was being looked at, was being twisted, misrepresented, etc etc. So I made a spin post.

At that moment, I made a very fatal mistake. The presence alone of that spin post told Artie (although I didn't think about the reception of it in this light before I made the post) that I thought so little of his intellect that I could make him believe whatever I said to him.

Pujols is doing the same dumb shit I did. He could just walk away and say "Guys, look ... It was never supposed to be about the money, but there was no way I could turn this down. Despite my best intentions, this offer was just too much for me to stay."

Instead it's spin, because I'm not smart enough to understand 254 million is a lot of money, and as long as Pujols tells me it wasn't about money, I'll believe him.

I think we're finding out who the real megalomaniac is

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/deidre-pujols-speaks-up-about-split-with-cardinals/article_61679220-24f5-11e1-8744-001a4bcf6878.html

This reminds me so much of the Kurt Warner situation.  Brenda Warner did her husband no favors doing radio interviews, and neither is Didi.

"In 2007 Mark Mangino made the mistake of posing for this picture and establishing himself as 'fatter than the Orange Bowl mascot'"

Good news for Kansas.  By hiring Charlie Weis, they found a use for all of Mangino's leftover coach's clothes.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/08/29/mailbag/1.html

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

One last point.  As far as the "it should never have gotten this far," perhaps it's fair to dump some of that on DeWitt, but let's not forget that it was Pujols and his agent who imposed the January deadline on negotiating a new deal.  Plenty of players work out deals during the season without distraction.  If Pujols REALLY wanted to be here, there wasn't any reason to impose a deadline.

But in fairness to Pujols just as the marlins have a longtime policy of not offering no-trade clauses, didn't Pujols have a longstanding policy of no negotiations during the season?  That is, the Cards knew going back several years that it would need to get done before opening day, and they waited until almost the last minute, then low-balled him.  Then after the season, unknown to us, they were doing everything people on this board were saying would be too stupid and disrespectful to do, like removing last years offer and coming back with a smaller one, and then playing 'squeeze the blood from a rock' until the negotiations became like Chinese water torture.

I don't recall the same timeline. I recall there were negotiations at some point last year, Pujols set a deadline and said there would be no further contract talks during the regular season.

I think you remember incorrectly, or we are not saying the same thing.

1) I think the Cards FO indicated several years ago that Pujols's extension was on their agenda, and they gave an "ideal" time, and I believe it was after '09, but might have been after '10.

2) I believe Pujols had a long standing policy of no negotiations during the season, going back at least a yea or two, (maybe longer?).

What we know is that the Cards did not even make an offer until the clock had pretty much run out on Pujols's self-imposed time clock.  Why not make that offer back in November and let the process work itself out?  One explanation is that they did not want any negotiation; they wanted to present a 'take it or leave it' offer, without the harsh language.  So they sat and waited until it was a de facto 'take it or leave it' offer.

alz wrote:

Max, I'm not saying Pujols didn't have every right to feel dissed, get pissed, and walk. That's what he did. If he could just sack up and say that, I'd have no problem. My issue with AP is the spin, and the constant and STILL PRESENT declaration of love for our team, city and fans. I'm going to pull an Artie and call it bullshit. If you loved us, you would have stayed. You loved the contract the Angels were offering. We offered 10, we offered 9, 5 years. You didn't like the MONEY. 198/9 was offensive, 150/5 was offensive. What was offensive? The years or the MONEY that doesn't matter?

Sure when his 125/5 was rejected, he was in his right. However, he took that and used it to be an unforgiveable roadblock. I will never forgive the insult of 200 million for 9 years!!!! Really? It's not about the money, it's about what then?

That's what has me so pissed off at Pujols. The spin.

I don't see the dilemma: he does love us, the team, the traditions.  He despises DeWitt as an egotistical dick who tried every trick in the book to take advantage of Pujols.  But saying that publicly is not something every one is well equipped for.

windwalker wrote:

Bernie did get off one horrible take ---" Pujols didn't like his boss. Didn't feel appreciated by his boss. Didn't get that personal touch from his boss. Welcome to the real world, Albert." If Bernie or any of us did our jobs well enough that we could sell our services to the highest bidder and practically name our price, and we had an asshole boss, we'd tell the asshole to shove it and go get paid somewhere else. Albert wasnt making shoes for MJ.

Exactly, Windy!  rec.

Particularly when DeWitt was practically taunting Pujols to make a deal elsewhere.

Last edited by Max (12/12/2011 6:26 pm)

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

"2) after signing Holliday, the Cards should have gotten serious about extending Pujols, which they said they wanted to do" before Pujols had multiple elbow surgeries


Somehow you always leave that last part out and treat it like an incidental fact.

Not at all, Fors.  I treat it as a risk.  Another risk is not extending Pujols under those conditions and then discovering his free market value is far higher than what the Cardinals are comfortable paying.  DeWitt gambled, and he gambled that Pujols would not make it to his payday, and even if he did, he (DeWitt) wasn't going to meet the top offers, and just for good measure he wasn't even going to ask Pujols nicely to stay and play for less.  No warm fuzzies from DeWitt.  He gambled wrong and then couldn't even set his ego aside to say 'pretty please.'

So it's OK if Pujols hardens his stance and treats negotiations like a business, but if Dewitt does so, he's a megalomaniac?  Gotcha.