"The GM apparently never thought much of McClellan in the first place."

Yet Kyle Lohse is worthy of a 4-year, 8-figure deal with a no trade clause? I hope Moz hasn't come under the impression that he's now bullet proof, and he hasn't forgotten that on Sept. 1 there was every reason in the world to classify the 2011 season as mildly disappointing.

forsberg_us wrote:

"I dont think they soured on McCellan."

They have.  Or perhaps a more accurate way of putting it would be that those who thought highly of McClellan are no longer actively employed by the organization.  The GM apparently never thought much of McClellan in the first place.

Which makes it all the more weird that they brought him back.

Our family had dinner last night with Chad & his family.  A couple of things we discussed on this issue:

- He isn't sure the Oswalt rumors are real as opposed to being rumors generated by the Oswalt camp to generate interest.  Having said that, Chad admitted that he's a lot less involved in matters these days than he was previously.

- McClellan hurt his standing within the organization pretty significant last September.  Apparently McClellan declared himself unavailable quite a bit in September when it looked as though the team was out of the playoff race.  There was a belief that McClellan was satisfied with his numbers up until September and didn't want to risk pitching a little fatigued and hurt himself in arbitration.  This led to McClellan being left off the LDS roster and McClellan's public complaints about being left off of the roster.  Duncan and Larussa talked to McClellan about the issue at the time and things were seemingly patched up with the manager/pitching coach, but not so much with the GM.

- The Molina issue has very little to do with Pujols leaving--it's really about Molina's own contract situation.  It sounds like there's a pretty big difference between how the club values Molina and where Molina values himself.  Chad didn't know the figures, but the two sides apparently exchanged opening numbers.  Someone here suggested 4/$40M, and Chad thinks that's probably what it will take to get the deal done.  The team may not be willing to go 4 years guaranteed for a soon to be 30 year old catcher with a lot of innings on his knees.

Molina at 10 million/yr seems really high to me, but that could just be me. I know he hit .305 last season with 14 HR's, but his career average is .274 and he'd never hit more than 8 HR's before last year. On top of that, he's slow as shit (he's a catcher ffs), and starting to develop signs of laziness blocking balls. Again, that may just be me seeing him at the wrong moments.

Course. Victor Martinez is on a 4/50 deal right now... McCann is in his option years with the Braves (8.5M for 2012, and 12.5M for 2013). Maybe 10 million is a pretty fair price. There isn't a world of talent in the big leagues at the Catcher position. Napoli was @ 5.8M last season, and will certainly command more than that. Baseball Reference lists him at 4th-Year Arb Eligible (Super 2), so I don't know what that means for him, but I have to think arbitration will give him a buttload after hitting 30 home runs in 113 games while hitting for a .320 avg

Yadi is in a tough spot here. The only team from which he has a hope of getting paid for past performance is the Cardinals, and if they weren't willing to do that with Pujols, they're not going to make an exception for a guy who probably won't be able to play his primary defensive position by the end of the contract he wants. I have a feeling Yadi's tenure with the Cardinals is going to end as acrimoniously as Pujols' did, only Yadi isn't going to get a $254 million parachute.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (1/30/2012 7:38 pm)

alz wrote:

Victor Martinez is on a 4/50 deal right now...

Molina cant justify a move to first or DH (if it were an option) with his bat like Martinez and Napoli can. 

I cant argue that Cruz can replace Molina and I cant argue that anyone on the 2013 free agent list could be signed or how good they would be.  The Cardinals might be forced to over pay for a player who in my mind is not worth 10 million.

Me and AP have seen eye-to-eye on this Molina stuff for awhile.

I don't begrudge Molina one bit here, though. He's been a very good catcher and this is his best chance to get paid, which is what it's all about. I just don't think it should be the Cardinals who give him that paycheck.

tkihshbt wrote:

Me and AP have seen eye-to-eye on this Molina stuff for awhile.

I don't begrudge Molina one bit here, though. He's been a very good catcher and this is his best chance to get paid, which is what it's all about. I just don't think it should be the Cardinals who give him that paycheck.

I agree.  I think my issues comes from not valueing catcher very much.  For the most part they are not paid to hit and should be expect to know how to field.  You cant put a number on "calling" games.  You cant see it either.  I look at catcher as a defensive position like SS.  Would you pay 10 million to a SS with a career .700 OPS?

"I dont really buy into the idea that "calling" games is that important."

It's more than just throwing down fingers. You have to be able to know that if your catcher calls for a 2-strike pitch in the dirt, you can bounce it and he's going to come up with it. There's probably nothing more demoralizing to a pitcher than striking a guy out and having him end up on first base because the ball got away from the catcher. And when the batter can rule out one of your pitches, he has a huge advantage.
It's about having confidence in your catcher knowing the hitter well enough to call the right pitch in the right situation. Being comfortable on the mound is a huge component, and if you don't have confidence in your catcher, you're not going to be comfortable and less able to execute your pitches in the best manner possible.
It's impossible for me to say from my couch how much confidence the Cardinals' pitchers have in Yadi, but I generally don't see a lot of guys shaking Yadi off, which is a sign they trust him.

"However I am not quick to give Molina credit for calling games.  It is well known that Duncan had a detailed game plan.  All Molina has had to do is try not to get in the way.  Plus I thought that alot of pitches came from the dugout now days."

Duncan isn't with the team.  For the 2012 season, responsibility for the "detailed game plan" falls on Chad and Molina.

Molina calls his own pitches and has for several seasons.  The only thing the dugout was responsible for was the occasional pitch out or throw over to first.

I've never pitched or caught a game at any level, so I can't really speak from any personal knowledge of the issue.  But the one thing I've heard over and over again is that Molina possesses a unique ability to read a situation and make intuitive decisions, even at times deviating from the game plan.  The most prominant instance was the Adam Wainwright/Carlos Beltran at bat that ended the 2006 NLCS.  Before the at bat, there was a meeting on the mound and it was agreed that Wainwright was going to start the at-bat with a fastball to get ahead in the count.  The story goes that Molina got back behind the plate and saw from Beltran's body language was he was completely jacked up and looked ready to jump on a fastball, so instead of calling for a fastball he called for a changeup.  Beltran jumped out of his shoes thinking it was a fastball, swung early and fell behind in the count.  The rest is history.  One of the 2006 World Series DVDs includes a discussion with Larussa about the pitch sequence, and Larussa describes his shock at seeing a changeup.  I suppose it's brilliant when it works, and I certainly can't give you a way to quantify how often Molina might make a call like that (or make a call like that and have it backfire).  But it seems to my untrained eye that there's a value there.  I can't tell you how much.

Here's the reason why I think the team faces a difficult situation.  Molina receives $7.5M this season.  Feel free to argue whether or not he's worth it, but that's the figure.  Assume for the sake of discussion, he has another decent season--not last years numbers--say .280, 10 HR, 50 RBI and has another good season behind the plate.  Can ownership really go to Molina and ask him to take a pay cut?  If not, and Molina asks for $10M/season, then you're not talking about a huge difference.  The years might be another story, but if Molina comes down to 3 plus and option, I think the team looks bad if they let him walk.  Just my opinion.

My view was going to be 10M/yr was insane. That changed quickly when I looked at a few things.
1) The stats for Catchers, now last year didn't include Posey much, but the amount of catchers that can clip .305 (and with Molina's speed, that's a legit number, he's not beating out anything) isn't high. The guys who are doing it are making anywhere from 8.5-12.5 a year.
2) Molina is regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in baseball, if not the best.
3) Molina does have the ability to manage games and his pitchers very well.
4) Molina is as effective as you can be with giving his pitcher free outs (pickoffs/steals).

In that light, as much as 10M/yr seems, it's not out of the question, and not even outside the realm of expectation to me. I think Yadi is entitled to ask for that kind of a deal, and should probably get it. I didn't realize catchers made so much. It's not like he's trying to top salary records like another former Cardinal who I will probably never mention again by name.

•The Cardinals have not made Oswalt a financial offer anywhere close to what he considers sufficient, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports.  Rosenthal reiterates that Oswalt seeks a one-year, $10MM deal.  Rosenthal questions Oswalt's leverage, if he remains adamant about pitching for two teams with full rotations in the Cardinals and Rangers. ----MLB Trade rumors

Offer him 5 to 7 for 1 yr. with incentives and find out , "Roy , do you really love us ?"
plus you have back issues .......