How about the dumbass that put the team together and caught lightning in a bottle about five or six times? Sabean can go to hell.

APRTW wrote:

Other then there ace I dont really dislike any of the gaints.  Sandavo is annoying to I guess.

I can't really dislike a guy who looks so much like Arlo Gutherie.

I should amend that to say that Sabean's GMing skills can go to hell. That was kneejerk. I'll explain.

The Giants put together a team that should've won 80 games, but because Sabean did such a terrible job since around 2004-2005, they were rewarded with guys like Lincecum, Posey, Bumgarner, etc. Those three, plus Matt Cain, elevated the team from where they should've finished. This was the same team that refused to bring up Buster Posey because "Triple A pitching isn't very good" (although it's really because they didn't want him to become a Super Two like Lincecum, which just shows how stupid they are when they'd rather pay Barry Zito $120 million than give GOOD players more than the league minimum).

And it's one thing for Cubs fans to bitch about Duncan sprinkling magic pixie dust on guys like Suppan, but that's bogus because Suppan was always a decent pitcher. Aubrey Huff and Pat Burrell? They were cooked. When Aaron Rowand fell through, they got lucky on a 32-year-old journeyman. When right field went bust, they went out and got Jose Guillen. Their solution at the middle infield? Juan Uribe, Freddy Sanchez and Edgar Renteria.

The Giants are a Ford Taurus with gold rims and a supercharger kit.

tkihshbt wrote:

I should amend that to say that Sabean's GMing skills can go to hell. That was kneejerk. I'll explain.

The Giants put together a team that should've won 80 games, but because Sabean did such a terrible job since around 2004-2005, they were rewarded with guys like Lincecum, Posey, Bumgarner, etc. Those three, plus Matt Cain, elevated the team from where they should've finished. This was the same team that refused to bring up Buster Posey because "Triple A pitching isn't very good" (although it's really because they didn't want him to become a Super Two like Lincecum, which just shows how stupid they are when they'd rather pay Barry Zito $120 million than give GOOD players more than the league minimum).

And it's one thing for Cubs fans to bitch about Duncan sprinkling magic pixie dust on guys like Suppan, but that's bogus because Suppan was always a decent pitcher. Aubrey Huff and Pat Burrell? They were cooked. When Aaron Rowand fell through, they got lucky on a 32-year-old journeyman. When right field went bust, they went out and got Jose Guillen. Their solution at the middle infield? Juan Uribe, Freddy Sanchez and Edgar Renteria.

The Giants are a Ford Taurus with gold rims and a supercharger kit.

Indulge me for a minute Tk, because I still really don't understand why this irritates you.  I haven't seen anyone calling Sabean a mad genius--frankly it would be tough for anyone to try to argue with the Rowand and Zito contracts lingering out there.  Are you upset because you're concerned that DeWitt may follow a similar path of dumpster diving?  Is it because the computer analysis says this team shouldn't have won more than 80 games?  I still don't get it.

In some ways this was the real life equivalent of the team from "Major League" winning the series.  I'd much rather have that happen than a team of mercenaries like the Yankees.  Of course that's just me.  I couldn't care less about the NBA, but every May for the next few years I hope I read a story that tells me the Heat have been eliminated from the playoffs.

Max wrote:

Third, and this could be an important one, my gripes about the Cardinals midseason efforts to improve were not merely that they were being too frugal, but also that IF Rasmus is a clubhouse problem, or has some other idiosyncrasy that makes him incompatible with the team, then he needs to be traded.  Period.  It's an ugly business, and is more art than science, and it cannot be an easy job to know when to pull the plug on the Rasmus Era, but waiting too long can be worse than making a move too early.  So, it's not like I was saying we should have offered Rasmus for Lee, it was that IF Rasmus had to go, then offering him for Lee (or someone else) might have been the best move.  We will just have to see how Rasmus progresses as a Cardinal.

Gotcha.  I'm not sure that I agree that Lee is who I would have targeted, but I can't argue with the premise that if Rasmus is a distraction then you have to move him.  I've been hearing rumbling that the Cardinals may be listening to trade offers a little harder than they originally let on they would.  But it's only going to make sense to move Rasmus for another player (or players) over whom the team would have a certain degree of cost certainty and control.

Maybe we could send Rasmus and Ryan to Texas for Kinsler and Andrus :-)

I have compaed Rasmus to Drew all along. I think they both though they were to good to play in the minors and didnt want to follow the major league formula.  I think if you trade Rasmus you have to get what they got out of the Drew trade.  2 pieces that fill needs on the major league club who are not costly and a midlevel prospect.  The difference is that Rasmus has more years of control left then Drew.  So you would think the 3 players would each be better then what they got in the Drew trade.

forsberg_us wrote:

I haven't seen anyone calling Sabean a mad genius--frankly it would be tough for anyone to try to argue with the Rowand and Zito contracts lingering out there. ***
I'd much rather have that happen than a team of mercenaries like the Yankees.  Of course that's just me.  I couldn't care less about the NBA, but every May for the next few years I hope I read a story that tells me the Heat have been eliminated from the playoffs.

I was thinking as I watched Rowand playing like a hitter in the on deck circle last night how much I was afraid that the Cardinals were going to sign him a couple of years ago.  Somehow I had the impression that TLR really wanted him and probably for the reasons that I always liked him.  But it seemed to me that he was way overvalued at the time and I was afraid that the Cardinals would really screw up by going after him.

And I couldn't agree with you more about the Heat.  I haven't watched NBA in several years but now I'll consciously avoid it.

Last edited by Mags (11/02/2010 2:58 pm)

Mags wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I haven't seen anyone calling Sabean a mad genius--frankly it would be tough for anyone to try to argue with the Rowand and Zito contracts lingering out there. ***
I'd much rather have that happen than a team of mercenaries like the Yankees.  Of course that's just me.  I couldn't care less about the NBA, but every May for the next few years I hope I read a story that tells me the Heat have been eliminated from the playoffs.

I was thinking as I watched Rowand playing like a hitter in the on deck circle last night how much I was afraid that the Cardinals were going to sign him a couple of years ago.  Somehow I had the impression that TLR really wanted him and probably for the reasons that I always liked him.  But it seemed to me that he was way overvalued at the time and I was afraid that the Cardinals would really screw up by going after him.

And I could agree with you more about the Heat.  I haven't watched NBA in several years but now I'll consciously avoid it.

I thought you were a Rowand guy.

forsberg_us wrote:

Gotcha.  I'm not sure that I agree that Lee is who I would have targeted, but I can't argue with the premise that if Rasmus is a distraction then you have to move him.  I've been hearing rumbling that the Cardinals may be listening to trade offers a little harder than they originally let on they would.

I think that you can't have too much starting pitching.  Lee was relatively cheap, in terms of dollars, and would've made an excellent addition to our staff.  I still think the offensive power outage and mid-August collapse had something to do with clubhouse unease over how the front office left the appearance that they mishandled the whole midseason upgrade, but what's done is done and no one can prove what might have happened if this , that, or the other thing had been done.  But overall, I agree that IF Rasmus is traded, it would be much better if we received someone whose fate we control, rather than a rental.

In the bigger picture, however, I think that the fact that Pujols is on record as stating that Rasmus must go is a problem that needs a solution.  Again, if Rasmus just hired a competent press agent it could be solved in a day, but that kid seems utterly hopeless, or else willfully problematic.  How hard is it to hire a PR company to tell you to get a softball reporter to do a human interest story on you in which you confide that the moment you woke up and became an adult was the morning that you opened the newspaper to read that your idol, Albert Pujols, said you needed to be traded?  "Golly, that hit me like a mule kick to the bread basket.  I learned an important lesson from Mr. Pujols that day, how even a great player like him has to put his own needs second to those of the team, and its a lesson that will make me a better ballplayer for the Cardinals.  It kind of made my problems seem like a little molehill.  One of the things people will think about when they vote for him to be a first ballot Hall of Famer will be how he helped young guys like me learn the game of baseball.  You might have all skills in the world--and I'm not saying I do--but you gotta learn the game.  So, yeah, I grew up that day, and I owe my teammates a lot, especially Mr. Pujols."

Seriously, what the hell is Rasmus waiting for, for PUJOLS to talk to the press and say, "Nah, I was just sore that day.  The kid can stay."??!!??

Last edited by Max (11/02/2010 10:04 pm)

Marquis wasnt a pretty good pitcher prior to 2004.  He was crap.  A cheap 5th starter with some upside.  Ray King had a solid career at that point but it is hard to value a bullpen pitcher.  I think Wainwright has suprised everyone, including the Cardinals.  I think I over value the Drew trade.  It worked out better then anyone could have guessed.  It also worked out good for the Braves.  Drew was there impact bat that was supposed to put them over the edge.  They had as good as chance as any of winning it all in 2004.  Marrero gave them alot more then expected the first year. 

What the trade did was fill needs on both teams.  The hardest part about trading rasmus is replacing him in the outfield.  It is hard to believe an outfield of Jay and Craig would increase run production.  It isnt like ownership is going to go out and get Jayson Werth .

He didnt pitch much in 2003 and had a 5 plus ERA in 2002 and 2003.  Like I said he was a cost controled 5th starter with upside.  That is what the Cardinals needed.  What the Cardinals got out of him in 2004 was much more.  I dont remember my feelings on the trade at the time but I would guess that the trade turned out much much better then expected.

forsberg_us wrote:

Mags wrote:

I still can't figure out why the Braves made that trade.  It looked bad then, from their standpoint, and it looks terrible now.  You would have thought that Walt would have been going to them and asking who he would have to throw in to get them to take Drew and cover his salary.

I think the Braves believed that they were going to be able to convince Drew, who grew up in Georgia, to sign long term.  They foolishly underestimated the Boras influence.

I recall hearing Bobby Cox say as much during an interview at the end of the regular season this year. The part about they wouldn't have made the trade if they didn't think they'd re-sign Drew. Not the part about underestimating Boras. You could kind of tell Cox still regrets the trade, Eli Marerro's myriad contributions to the Braves notwithstanding.

Mags wrote:

Damnit.  TK was right and I wasn't keeping count.  How many posts do I need to get rid of Branyan?

it goes in increments of 25, mags.