Looks like everyone thinks it is a stupid idea unless someone blows them away.

I think the issue with this team is that they are a bunch of tight asses.  There isnt one person other then the pitchers that I think it would be fun to have beers with.  Maybe Rasmus would have felt welcomed if the team ever seemed to have fun.

APRTW wrote:

I think the issue with this team is that they are a bunch of tight asses.  There isnt one person other then the pitchers that I think it would be fun to have beers with.  Maybe Rasmus would have felt welcomed if the team ever seemed to have fun.

I'm not defending Rasmus but I agree with you APRTW.  The team has also become too cliquish.  I only realized that recently when Artie provided the story about Ankiel's treatment of Rasmus, but the evidence has been there for some time.

I think seeing the contrast between this recent edition of the Cards and the San Francisco Giants really brought it home to me.  Of course teams are always going to look more relaxed when they are winning than when they are not.  But there's lots of guys on that Giants team I'd like to have a beer with, as long as it is after 3 p.m. and before 10.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

Sure, La Russa might not be around a whole lot longer, but Pujols probably will.  It's like none of those guys wants to discuss the elephant in the corner, which is probably good for the team.  But put this into a different context, for example, Jeter and/or A-Rod saying Granderson needed to be traded, and think what the New York media might do with it.

If you're going to play this game, at least put it in the correct context.  Pujols said that if Rasmus didn't want to be a part of the organization, then the organization should move him.  Rasmus has since said he wants to be a part of the organization.  You're trying to make this sound like Pujols is walking around this off-season demanding that Rasmus be traded.  That's not the case.

The words were said and printed and a professional organization should not allow that level of dissension between their #1 franchise player and their #1 young star to go unresolved.  If Rasmus can't read those words and do the math to see that he owes an apology to his teammates and his organization, then someone should be telling him to hire a professional to tell him what to say.  That is just plain people management.

Do you even remember the story that you yourself posted:

"The Rasmus issue became a simmering one that exploded when Pujols offered a strong rebuke of the second-year player upon learning of his trade request.

Rather than destroy a relationship, Rasmus said the Sept. 5 revelation signaled a turning point in his relationship with La Russa, with Pujols and with a number of teammates.

Pujols spoke at length with Rasmus on that evening's team flight to Milwaukee.

'Something happens and you keep going and nobody really talks about it. That makes it tough to deal with,' Rasmus said. 'We talked, and it was good.'

The next day La Russa asserted he and Rasmus could co-exist while underscoring the 24-year-old's massive potential. A number of teammates also quietly offered Rasmus their support.

"I don't know what brought it all on, but I think some guys got a little better understanding of me," said Rasmus, who said there is "no doubt" the clubhouse environment subsequently improved.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_dd929a5d-146f-55b1-a716-a86876744604.html


Sounds to me that there hasn't been any dissension between Pujols and Rasmus since September 5 and the only person making an issue out of this is you.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

If you're going to play this game, at least put it in the correct context.  Pujols said that if Rasmus didn't want to be a part of the organization, then the organization should move him.  Rasmus has since said he wants to be a part of the organization.  You're trying to make this sound like Pujols is walking around this off-season demanding that Rasmus be traded.  That's not the case.

The words were said and printed and a professional organization should not allow that level of dissension between their #1 franchise player and their #1 young star to go unresolved.  If Rasmus can't read those words and do the math to see that he owes an apology to his teammates and his organization, then someone should be telling him to hire a professional to tell him what to say.  That is just plain people management.

Do you even remember the story that you yourself posted:

Sounds to me that there hasn't been any dissension between Pujols and Rasmus since September 5 and the only person making an issue out of this is you.

Did I post that???  Apparently I do not remember doing so.  If I had, I wouldn't be bringing it up.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.  It sounds like what needed to happen, happened.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

The words were said and printed and a professional organization should not allow that level of dissension between their #1 franchise player and their #1 young star to go unresolved.  If Rasmus can't read those words and do the math to see that he owes an apology to his teammates and his organization, then someone should be telling him to hire a professional to tell him what to say.  That is just plain people management.

Do you even remember the story that you yourself posted:

Sounds to me that there hasn't been any dissension between Pujols and Rasmus since September 5 and the only person making an issue out of this is you.

Did I post that???  Apparently I do not remember doing so.  If I had, I wouldn't be bringing it up.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.  It sounds like what needed to happen, happened.

Yes

http://2006cardinals.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=110

artie_fufkin wrote:

And someone in the organization ought to print out a copy of Pujols' comments and present it to him when negotiations for a new contract start.

What good do you think that will do?

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

And someone in the organization ought to print out a copy of Pujols' comments and present it to him when negotiations for a new contract start.

What good do you think that will do?

Wishful thinking. I know.

i want to take pujols at his word, and it has been my argument over the past year or so that the whole issue is that he wants to see guarantees that any home discount he offers will not simply go into dewitt's bank account.  the whole debate last offseason about holliday was used, inappropriately, in my estimation, to show that dewitt was doing just that: demonstrating a new commitment to success.  my concern then, and now, is that if pujols offers a monetary contribution to the team in the form of a home town discount, then he will want to see something, ideally a commensurate sum, pumped into payroll.  true, nobody wants to see money spent foolishly, and it is also true that in any given season the pieces simply might not be there at the right price.  but at this point, after 4 years of declining or flat payroll, that argument looks weak.  moz spoke dry powder . . . perhaps two years before pulling the trigger on the holliday deal, but the for all the blue smoke and mirrors, he didn't use any dry powder for that deal; he simply recycled old powder.

so, my thesis for the past year or so is that pujols and his leverage with the front office is our best chance to break down dewitt's argument about holding payroll down, and finally getting him to spend some of the money that many of us believe is there.  if dewitt is willing to spend real money, new money, dry powder, on 'legitimate help', then i take pujols at his word and think he will resign for something reasonable.  what that is, i can't say, but my hunch is that, say, $30 million over 5 years would be a very good deal for dewitt and he should leap at that, and kick an extra $5-10 million into payroll to boot.

forsberg_us wrote:

If you believe they are trying to resign Westbrook (and I do), then payroll will go up if they re-sign Pujols.  The only question will be, up to what?

I think they probably are, too, and I take Moz at his word when he says that payroll will go up if needed (and that need is almost a guarantee at this point).

I think the disappointing thing for many people will be is something that memory tells me both you and TK have pointed out, that, after so many years of declining or flat payrolls, and after calculating in escalating salaries to people under contract now, payroll would have to go up by a whopping amount in order to pay Pujols, pay all the escalators, AND get any kind of impact player, which I do not consider Westbrook to be.

I don't recall the specifics, but I seem to recall TK mentioning figures of $10-20 million increases (which is a process that I was arguing should have begun last year . . . )

The team could be in a real bind, and they might find that they need some Jocketty-like magic to find a Tony Womack, or two.

forsberg_us wrote:

Assume Pujols gets $28M.  The current payroll looks like this (without signing anyone):

C- Molina- $5.3M
1B- Pujols- $28M
2B- Schumaker- $2.7M
SS- Ryan- Arb 1
3B- Freese- $400K
LF- Holliday- $17M
CF- Rasmus- $400K
RF- Craig- $400K

Bench- Jay- $400K
Bench- Greene- $400K
Bench-
Bench-
Bench-

SP- Carpenter- $15M
SP- Lohse- $12.2M
SP- Wainwright- $6.7M
SP- Garcia- $400K
SP
RP- Franklin- $3.5M
RP- Miller- $2M
RP- Motte- $400K
RP- Boggs- $400K
RP- McClellan- Arb 1
RP- Hawksworth- $400K
RP-

That's a $96M payroll without Ryan's or McClellan's arbitration numbers, with 3 empty spots on the bench, an empty spot in the rotation and an empty spot in the bullpen.

If you include Westbrook ($7-9M), one new middle infielder ($4-6M), one veteran on the bench ($1-2M), give McClellan a raise to $1M and fill the remaining 3 spots with minimum salary players ($400K each), you're in the $110-115 range.

They're still *only* on the hook for $16 million for Pujols next year. Assuming they re-sign him, it'll be 2012 before they start paying him ARod money. I know that's kind of nit-picking, but in your scenario that puts their salary in the $98 million-$103 million range.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (11/05/2010 9:26 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

They're still *only* on the hook for $16 million for Pujols next year. Assuming they re-sign him, it'll be 2012 before they start paying him ARod money. I know that's kind of nit-picking, but in your scenario that puts their salary in the $98 million-$103 million range.

i will nitpick with that opinion and say that is not how i understand contract restructur-ations to work.  if they sign a new deal, expect the a-rod-like money to begin asap-aroonie.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Except I've never seen the term "asap-aroonie" before.

The Young Dubliners were friends of mine when they were a bar band playing in Santa Monica and I was an undergrad at UCLA.  Until it was lost on my move back to the States, I had a soundboard recording from a show they played about 20 years ago where Keith announced to the crowd that there was a car double-parked illegally in the back parking lot, and the owner needed to move it "ASAP-aroonie" or it would be towed.  That expression has kind of stuck with me.