artie_fufkin wrote:

I also recall Kennedy groused about playing time and asked to be traded after the 2008 season. The Cardinals released him when they were unable to find a taker for a second baseman with an OPS under .700 who couldn't beat out Aaron Miles.

exactly.  he had a hand in his departure.

APIAD wrote:

The signing of Kennedy wasnt a mistake.

That's a slightly different argument, and this can go around in circles, as it has with, for example, the Lohse signing.  I defended that consistently from day one (literally) as a good signing, even when it looked pretty bad when Lohse was injured.

I am a bit ambivalent on Kennedy.  I use that as an example of the size of a contract that the Cards won't eat, it crosses the threshold.  He wasn't effective in year one and the Cards were not competitive.  Of course, money might not have been the only reason they didn't find a replacement within that first season.  I just attach a name to the concept "an Adam Kennedy sized contract", partly because there was definitely fan dissatisfaction at that time.  And FWIW, I don't consider eating the third year of a three year contract as eating the contract, it's eating a part for sure, one year and $4 M (according to Fors).  So, the threshold of what they will eat and won't eat is somewhere between $4M/1 and $10M/3, and as others have pointed out, the years might be an important factor, in addition to the money, lest they gain the reputation of screwing players over.

Now, to open another can of worms, I think that whatever goodwill the organization generated during the La Russa years was largely exhausted with the Pujols fiasco.  I am guessing that hurt the organizations ability to retain players and attract free agents, to a much greater degree than anything they might have done to Adam Kennedy.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I guess all I was saying was that as someone who had watched the show, I think if I happened to encounter her on the street, I probably would have recognized her.

not sure why this reminds me, but my nephew/cousin's schoolhood friend is dating Jennifer Anniston.

On my behalf, can you please ask your nephew/cousin's schoolhood friend to please ask Jenn to STOP TAKING ROLES IN AWFUL ROMANTIC COMEDIES THAT MY WIFE INSISTS ON WATCHING?
Thanks in advance.

"Rather, as a rule, they don't seem willing to acknowledge a waste that large."

Well, the Cardinals aren't alone in that realm. If they could, they would have given Pujols what he wanted three or four years ago and lived with his declining performance. There's only one team that really can and does eat huge salaries consistently. Kevin Brown doesn't work out? Let's go get Jaret Wright? That doesn't work? Go get Carl Pavano? Pavano is a sissy? Let's bring Roger Clemens back. Those were all eight figure deals. They even way overpay for the players they have. ARod can re-negotiate? Give him what he wants. Jeter? He's the captain. Let's throw another bushel of money at him to keep him in pinstripes.
Someone mentioned the Red Sox dumping Manny Ramirez, but it was under the condition the Dodgers would pay him for the rest of the season. Same with the trade they made to the Dodgers last year. Look at the trouble the Cubs have put themselves in by signing players to shitty contracts they have to dump later. How'd you like to be looking at the Phillies' payroll the next few years?

Last edited by artie_fufkin (11/15/2012 9:46 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I guess all I was saying was that as someone who had watched the show, I think if I happened to encounter her on the street, I probably would have recognized her.

not sure why this reminds me, but my nephew/cousin's schoolhood friend is dating Jennifer Anniston.

On my behalf, can you please ask your nephew/cousin's schoolhood friend to please ask Jenn to STOP TAKING ROLES IN AWFUL ROMANTIC COMEDIES THAT MY WIFE INSISTS ON WATCHING?
Thanks in advance.

Or at least show her boobies.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Now, to open another can of worms, I think that whatever goodwill the organization generated during the La Russa years was largely exhausted with the Pujols fiasco."

You're reading the tea leaves wrong, Max. Way wrong.

That's possible.  In response to both you and Fors I'll say that the issue with FO credibility came in the period of, say 2009/10 until their rejected offer prior to the 2011 season.  Everything that happened thereafter was a predictable shit-storm.

"Everything that happened thereafter was a predictable shit-storm."

By the shit only rained from one side of the front. Whatever their position was during the negotiations, the Cardinals didn't go out and bad-mouth him in the press after he left.
As opposed to the Pujols' camp, which at first attributed his move to Anaheim to divine intervention, subjected themselves to Arte Moreno's dog-and-pony show on national TV, and then reacted angrily when there was backlash toward all of it.

tkihshbt wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

As opposed to the Pujols' camp, which at first attributed his move to Anaheim to divine intervention, subjected themselves to Arte Moreno's dog-and-pony show on national TV, and then reacted angrily when there was backlash toward all of it.

Yeah, I think it still sticks in their craw that people didn't immediately come to their side because he still remains awfully active in St. Louis.

It comes back to that comment Albert made (after the 2007 season?) about being more interested in championships than money and the whole "Cardinal-for-life" thing. DeWitt won the public relations war at that point. He could have offered Albert minimum wage and if Pujols went elsewhere, Albert would have looked like a hypocrite. Pujols could have kept his mouth shut or said something like "My first preference is to remain in St. Louis ..." and it's unlikely people would have reacted to his departure by burning their replica Pujols jerseys.

tkihshbt wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

As opposed to the Pujols' camp, which at first attributed his move to Anaheim to divine intervention, subjected themselves to Arte Moreno's dog-and-pony show on national TV, and then reacted angrily when there was backlash toward all of it.

Yeah, I think it still sticks in their craw that people didn't immediately come to their side because he still remains awfully active in St. Louis.

Pujols does?

tkihshbt wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

As opposed to the Pujols' camp, which at first attributed his move to Anaheim to divine intervention, subjected themselves to Arte Moreno's dog-and-pony show on national TV, and then reacted angrily when there was backlash toward all of it.

Yeah, I think it still sticks in their craw that people didn't immediately come to their side because he still remains awfully active in St. Louis.

"their" meaning the Pujols?  My God they were chumps in the face of the PR campaign that had been working against them for several years.  Reminds me of a series of books you probably haven't read, as regards the power of the powers that be.

Honest to God, what was the problem with Pujols attitude, prior to October 2011?  He repeatedly stated his desire to be a Cardinal for life, he said money was not the most important thing, and finally said something like" what am I supposed to do, hold a gun to their head and force them to offer me contract?"  Recall that despite the Cards FO statements about extending Cards and ideal times, they didn't even present an offer until they gave him a last minute lowball offer just prior to Pujols's self-imposed deadline of ST 2011.  Of course he felt fucking dissed, used, played . . . who wouldn't have???

artie_fufkin wrote:

It comes back to that comment Albert made (after the 2007 season?) about being more interested in championships than money and the whole "Cardinal-for-life" thing. DeWitt won the public relations war at that point. He could have offered Albert minimum wage and if Pujols went elsewhere, Albert would have looked like a hypocrite. Pujols could have kept his mouth shut or said something like "My first preference is to remain in St. Louis ..." and it's unlikely people would have reacted to his departure by burning their replica Pujols jerseys.

Bingo.  And frankly, I suspect DeWitt of being savvy enough that he was already weighing the pros and cons of extending Pujols.  Hell, Fors even said they hired a firm to investigate the financial implications.

The simple fact Max is that none of it matters. Dewitt made an offer than fans viewed as more than reasonable. Pujols didn't see it that way and accepted the Angels contract. Fans were pissed, but overall Pujols was losing the PR battle. Then Didi Pujols decided to open her mouth and pour gasoline on the flames.

From that moment, things couldn't have gone better for Dewitt if he had written the script himself. Moreno trotted Pujols out for a dog & pony show that pissed people off. Then Pujols got surly over Anaheim's El Hombre campaign. Then Pujols started the season hitting below .200, didn't hit a HR until May and the Angels fell out of contention. Pujols wasn't named to the AL All-Star team. Even when Pujols started playing better and the Angels surged, credit was given to Mike Trout, not Pujols. By the end of the season, Pujols had his worst statistical season for the 3rd year in a row, missed the playoffs and had off-season knee surgery. Meanwhile, a post-Larussa, post-Pujols Cardinals team made the playoffs and got to within a game of the World Series.

The Cardinals proved they could win without Pujols. Pujols played well overall, but looked like a player that no one in their right mind would want to be saddled with for the next 9 seasons. In St. Louis, fans are excited about players like Allen Craig, Yadi Molina, Oscar Taveras and a host of young flame throwers. In contrast, Pujols is irrelevant. He didn't even bother coming to his foundation's golf tournament in St. Louis (Holliday took the lead on the event) and he's been replaced by Trout as the face of the Angels.

Dewitt won. And it's killing you which is why we're having this discussion for the umpteenth time.

And let me agree with you that I would have been one of those who was galled to no end by Hitler's victory in the years 1933-1945.