"You and I see things fairly similarly, Fors, I won't argue that.  One big difference is that you have a contact within the organization, have used the team's doctor, and frankly, your objectivity as regards the Cards FO is questionable in my appreciation."

And all that's fine Max, but find me one other person who shares any of your opinions about the Cardinals front office. One person who thinks the team is compromised with respect to free agents. One person who thinks--a year later--that the front office made a mistake. One person who thinks the Cardinals brand is devalued. One person.

If my objectivity is so compromised, it shouldn't be that hard to find one person who thinks differently. To hear you talk, I'm playing Joseph Goebbels to Dewitt's Hitler. But there were plenty of people from both inside and outside the Reich who disagreed with Hitler, especially by 1944. So if my views are so off base, it shouldn't be so hard to find something that contradicts them. Just one story that says the Cardinals front office screwed the pooch in 2012.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/no-pujols--no-problem--cardinals-roll-to-brink-of-world-series-19170509-20121019.html

Last edited by forsberg_us (11/16/2012 11:02 pm)

"As for one person who agrees with this, I haven't been following it closely enough, but my recollection is that Burwell wrote a piece that captured part of it."

Even Burwell figured it out.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bryan-burwell/burwell-no-tony-no-albert-no-problem/article_430b91e2-716d-5688-bcf4-f5df923b285a.html

forsberg_us wrote:

"As for one person who agrees with this, I haven't been following it closely enough, but my recollection is that Burwell wrote a piece that captured part of it."

Even Burwell figured it out.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bryan-burwell/burwell-no-tony-no-albert-no-problem/article_430b91e2-716d-5688-bcf4-f5df923b285a.html

Thanks for posting.  That reads pretty much like what I just wrote about the Night of the Long Knives, though written for the Berlin Post-Dispatch in 1936: "Hey, Hitler got rid of all those old heroes and we're stronger than ever".  I did not read one thing in that article that makes me think Burwell does not see the Machiavellian politics that screwed Pujols out of his desire to remain a Cardinal for life.

"The problem with your analogy is that these Cards are more like Hitler 1934, after the Night of the Long Knives, the murder of Hitler's competitors, and the removal of the SA as an independent operation.  Pujols was knifed in the back, La Russa went into exile, and DeWitt was left all alone.  Any future success of the Cards organization could not possibly be attributed to the wily GM, Walt Jocketty, the Hall of Fame bound manager, Tony La Russa, nor the best player of his generation, Albert Pujols.  No true vestiges of the system they put in place would be allowed to remain, and even pitching coach Dave Duncan, often mentioned as possibly being the first Hall of Fame bound pitching coach, was shown a graceful exit.  It's all about DeWitt now, and I think that's the way he wanted it: a low profile owner, but one who has nevertheless gotten sole control of the official Cardinals stamp of approval, finally. 

Ok. Let's pretend that Pujols didn't turn down a 10 year contract, that Larussa didn't leave of his own accord (read his book) and that Duncan didn't leave because his wife (and now son) contracted cancer. Let suspend reality and view it your way.

So what? 

As a fan of the Cardinals, the only thing I expect of Dewitt is that the organization fields a competitive team. They've done that. In fact, in this millennium, they've done it as well or better than any other team in the majors. If you don't want to root for the team because you don't view Dewitt as having satisfied some ethical code you seem to think he's required to follow, find another team.

But seriously, you sound foolish trying to paint Pujols a victim.

Why is the Cardinals not getting an extension done with Pujols prior to his contract running out all DeWitt's fault?  Pujols said, when asked, that his contract was not up till the end of the 2011 season and getting an extension wasnt a big deal.  Who is to say who was playing who.  Maybe DeWitt feared the big contract or Pujols getting hurt.  Maybe he was worried about having to pay for past production.  In the end he didnt have to.  At the same time maybe Pujols wanted to get the highest dollar all along.  Maybe the Cardinal for life crap was just to put pressure on DeWitt.  In the end both sides got what they may have wanted.  I know I am glad Pujols isnt a Cardinal for the next 9 years.  DeWitt is a money man.  No doubt it came into play.  What owner would value it?  He also knows that a losing club doesnt sell tickets.  It is safe to same that most owners, GMs and fans all want the same thing.  To see a winning club.  Fans do because they are fans.  Owners do because it makes them money.  GMs do because there jobs depend on it.  It is hard for me to swallow the idea that DeWitt was planning for years to turn the city of St. Louis against Pujols.  I am sure he fear a fan revolt but I am also sure he knows the city will turnout for a winning baseball team.

"For me, I see a very wealthy and astute businessman who spent some of that money on a well-calculated campaign over the course of several years to paint a fairly naive guy, Pujols, into a corner, while extracting every ounce of value possible out of Pujols's first extension."

There are 250 reason Pujols and his AGENT are not naive.  If he was naive he would be playing in St. Louis for peanuts.

"Ok. Let's pretend that Pujols didn't turn down a 10 year contract."

"I would like our fans to know that we tried our best to make Albert a lifetime Cardinal," team chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. said.  "I think we did everything we could," said general manager John Mozeliak.  Of course, I can't hear what they're saying because their actions have drowned out their words."

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/burwell-pujols-deal-belies-cardinals-actions/article_76a196f1-21c2-5e55-a8df-0d62ce716957.html

Let's not run around in circles.  I am granting you that DeWitt won.  Please do not try to deny or minimize his long-range strategy in the matter.  If and when we get there, we can start having fun. 

As for LaRussa, so what if he left on his own?  So, too, did lots of people voluntarily leave Germany for self-imposed exile when it became clear they had no place in Adolf DeWitt's Germany.  Einstein left voluntarily in 1933.  As for Duncan, the Strauss chat I read a couple of weeks back indicated that Duncan was gone for family reasons, but Strauss elaborated that while the wording talked about an open door for Duncan's return, there was in fact an understanding that he was not coming/(welcome?) back.

Last edited by Max (11/17/2012 7:39 pm)

APIAD wrote:

Max think about how youd feel if Pujols took DeWitts offer.  Really think about it.  Do you think the Cardinals would be better off and was the offer fair?

You are missing my point, I am arguing that DeWitt made a series of offers that were calculated to be rejected by Pujols, and piss him off to the point that he might make unwise, snotty, public statements. 

If you remember my argument was that they needed to do something flashy, like a new record for AAV to assuage Pujols's pride. Also remember my take on the Ryan Howard contract was that it had just saved the Cards a hundred million or more, when others were claiming it just pushed the price up.  My reason was that Howard settled for 5 years, when deals like A-Rod to Holliday indicated a contract should be 7-10, with Pujols commanding the higher end of that.  If at that point the Cards had moved, and offered a flashy five year deal, Pujols would have earned $25-30M per year for 2010-2014, and we'd be talking extension again, now, with his productivity finally seeming to be on the wane.  Indeed, I think I am correct in remembering that the Cards own FO indicated that the 2010-2011 (oops, 2009-2010) offseason was the ideal time to extend . . . but they didn't even make an offer.  Furthermore, I recall Fors saying something to the effect that Pujols himself floated the idea of a five-year deal in that very same time period, a suggestion that was rejected out of hand, possibly over concerns about Pujols's health.

DeWitt didn't go for any of that.  Why?  I think there's a good case to be made that DeWitt had already decided to extract every penny of value from Pujols's then-current contract, and let him go to the highest bidder, if that was his will.  Now, given that decision, I think DeWitt was clearly savvy enough to institute a PR campaign that would, in Burwell's words, "for image purposes . . . put up a carefully constructed facade of a "negotiation" to mislead Cardinals fans into believing an earnest pursuit of Pujols was going on."

Last edited by Max (11/17/2012 8:39 pm)

"As for LaRussa, so what if he left on his own?  So, too, did lots of people voluntarily leave Germany for self-imposed exile when it became clear they had no place in Adolf DeWitt's Germany.  Einstein left voluntarily in 1933."

Read his book Max. Larussa left on his own terms. The grind was wearing on him and the shingles he dealt with played a big role.

"As for Duncan, the Strauss chat I read a couple of weeks back indicated that Duncan was gone for family reasons, but Strauss elaborated that while the wording talked about an open door for Duncan's return, there was in fact an understanding that he was not coming/(welcome?) back."

Employment law 101 Max. If Duncan goes on a "leave" he remains an employeeof the team and his health benefits continue. Then, when his contract ends he can take COBRA for 18 months. Duncan wasn't ever coming back. His wife is in really bad shape. And as it turns out, now Chris Duncan is battling cancer also.

"The Cardinal Way at the negotiating table, as I've said a hundred times before, is the cold and impersonal touch. Strictly business. As team vice president Bill DeWitt III expressed it so eloquently, their approach was to keep working emotionlessly toward a deal "until it cuts to the bone. And when it cuts to bone, it's better to stop the surgery.""

Sounds like a smart way to do business. You'd rather they be stupid at the table?

Howard didn't sign a new 5 year deal, it was an extension. It started this year and is right now one of the worst contracts in baseball. If the Cardinals had done the same, it would have started last year. Pujols didn't produce at a $25+M level. Allen Craig was as good for $500K.

"DeWitt isn't damaging Cardinals history, he's writing his own chapter of it, and it's one of the best chapters in the book."

Oh yeah, I remember that period of Cardinal history, it was the La Russa/Pujols era, no?

"Read his book Max. Larussa left on his own terms. The grind was wearing on him and the shingles he dealt with played a big role. "

I will, and I'll get back to you.  In the meantime, recall that Einstein didn't leave for the US with the expressed reason that he did not see a future in Hitler's Germany.  He went for academic visits and essentially defected while here.  Also, this is still 1934 in terms of DeWitt establishing control over the Cards.  I would not expect La Russa to write a tell all that smears DeWitt yet, if ever.

"It was about money."

We might have to disagree on this AP.  If it was all about money, and if he was not naive, he would not have said all that crap about championships being more important than money, about wanting to be a Cardinal for life.  I think those are things he truly wanted, and DeWitt being a very savvy businessman and negotiator saw Pujols a negotiating opponent who had just tipped his hand.  It's a no-no of negotiation, and DeWitt pounced on it, rather than help nurture Pujols as an organizational treasure.