"So we are trying to get inside the mind of a guy who claims to have taken 250 million because god told him to"

Did you not see the video making the rounds this past election of Romney explaining Mormon beliefs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMD02zU9SE&feature=youtu.be

And 48% of this country were happy with that mind occupying the presidency.  I don't have a problem with that.  I don't have a problem with people's religious beliefs until they try to make me live by theirs.  So, I don't relate to Pujols's religious beliefs, but I let him have them and see them, ironically perhaps, as a sign of his humbleness.  He does not accept personal recognition for his success, but ascribes it to the will of God.  That's humility in the eyes of believers like that, whereas arrogance is to say, "that was all me."

"But it seems to me that most of us are pointing to the on-the-field team results in support of our argument and you're basing your case on the off-the-field handling of one player. "

And the point that brought this all up was: would the off-field handling of that one player make it more expensive at the negotiating table in the future?  Did DeWitt bruise the Cardinal brand reputation for being a great place that values its players? 

That remains to be seen.  The crucial issue/disagreement that will cause this to flare up from time to time is whether any of us are in denial about the off the field handling of one player. 

Leave it to one of the PD's best columnists to summarize:

"In theory, I know what DeWitt was trying to say. In reality, I hope that their 'spread the wealth" plan doesn't end up being a misguided strategy where they end up collecting a bunch of interesting little baseball trinkets thinking that they'll be able to replace a Hope Diamond-like talent named Albert Pujols."

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/burwell-pujols-deal-belies-cardinals-actions/article_76a196f1-21c2-5e55-a8df-0d62ce716957.html

That's another valid way to see it, AP.  But recall Fors's unreported insider story that Pujols himself floated the idea of a contract, I forget the details, but it was something like $125/5, back prior to 2010.  That doesn't jibe too well with the idea that he was in it for the money.  Neither does his statement about wanting championships more than money.  Similarly, the Chinese water torture that DeWitt and team laid on Pujols from jan. 2011 through Dec. 21012 doesn't sound like a legitimate attempt to make the man a Cardinal for life, but rather to make him a Cardinal-hater for life.  Add to that Fors's info that DeWitt hired a company to calculate the economic costs of losing Pujols, another step that doesn't sound like he was committed to making Pujols a Cardinal for life, and it is not a great leap to imagine that DeWitt hired a firm to help massage the PR of the split to minimize economic loss.  I have no proof of that, but it's a no-brainer.

Thus, for me the take-home message is that, as Burwell suspected, what we were watching was a "carefully constructed facade of a "negotiation" to mislead Cardinals fans into believing an earnest pursuit of Pujols was going on."  The uglier part of that was the need for a bit of character assassination to make the fanbase want to be rid of him, and I fully believe that the negotiations were designed to wound Pujols's pride and inflame his sense of righteous indignation.  I realize that this is probably the most controversial part of my thesis for otherwise loyal DeWittian Card fans, because it required Pujols and his wife screw themselves over in the press.  But I maintain that the art and science of public relations is easily up to that challenge.  Take a glance over at the macrocosm of Palestine-Israel to see how effectively they each know how to push each others' buttons and make each other look like homicidal pyschopaths. 

So that's the crux: 2001-2011 were eleven of the greatest years in Cardinal franchise history, but they now have a stain on them.  Those are and should be the Pujols Era, but for very narrow-minded economic self interest, I maintain that DeWitt stained that era for us, leaving a bad scar on the Pujols part of the Pujols era. I could have dealt with Pujols going elsewhere to the highest bidder; I did not appreciate seeing him publicly suffer the Chinese water torture treatment that DeWitt and Friends gave him in the 2-3 years leading up to the eventual split, and the ultimate staining of the era. 

The reason this entered the Hot Stove 2013 discussion is because, as a final sideline of the Furcal discussion, I voiced my opinion: "I think that whatever goodwill the organization generated during the La Russa years was largely exhausted with the Pujols fiasco.  I am guessing that hurt the organizations ability to retain players and attract free agents, to a much greater degree than anything they might have done to Adam Kennedy."  It remains to be seen whether that opinion is supported, and I think it will take a few years before we know.

Last edited by Max (11/18/2012 6:45 pm)

"Similarly, the Chinese water torture that DeWitt and team laid on Pujols from jan. 2011 through Dec. 21012"

Max, if you remember, it was Pujols who curtailed negotiations in the spring of 2011, not the other way around.

"Can we please stop with the comparisons to Nazi Germany? DeWitt owns a baseball team. He's not a mass murderer."

Why?  It's an analogy.  It made my case immediately understandable, and the proof of that is Fors response that I was almost comparing him to Goebbels.  Obviously I do not think Fors is Goebbels, but it shows that he got it and the analogy worked.

"Why?  It's an analogy."

It's a poor one, as are all the this-person-is-so-evil-let's-compare-him-to-Hitler analogies. You've made your point. You don't like DeWitt.

artie_fufkin wrote:

You've made your point. You don't like DeWitt.

I don't know DeWitt.  I was a huge supporter until 2007, things have gone downhill since then, and I have come to be deeply suspicious of the FO since Jocketty was fired.  It will take a while to know if the future is as successful and satisfying for Cardinal Nation as the past 17.  Only then will we be able to look back and judge DeWitt's legacy, independent of LaRussa and Pujols.  We'll just have to see how things play out.  In the meanwhile, I am very disappointed at how badly the divorce was handled.

BTW, AP you asked me a question a while back in this thread and I neglected to answer it. 

Yes, I had a ticket package (10 games) up until 2007, and yes I stopped buying it after that season because I felt Dewitt had gone ridiculously cheap in bring us players like Cement-head, Todd Wellemeyer, Sidney Ponson and Mike Maroth.  My position changed after 2009 when they re-signed Holliday.  Max liked to refer to it as rearranging the deck chairs, but the fact was that the Cardinals really only had one hole to fill that off-season and they did it with the best free agent available who came with a fairly hefty price tag.

forsberg_us wrote:

Max liked to refer to it as rearranging the deck chairs, but the fact was that the Cardinals really only had one hole to fill that off-season and they did it with the best free agent available who came with a fairly hefty price tag.

But to keep it accurate, pay roll had not gone up and my "rearranging the deck chairs" comment was not a criticism of the Holliday deal, but a response to those who were claiming that this Holliday contract represented some new all-in financial contribution from DeWitt.  It did not, it merely reshuffled how the payroll was being spent.  AFTER that season, DeWitt finally started kicking in some more money.

And perhaps the only reason this is still relevant is that, while I was ridiculed at the time for suggesting pay roll could and should go back to the nearly $100M it had already been at, and then keep climbing to $110 or even $120 M, it has done just exactly that.  My arm being fully rested from the back-patting I gave myself after I won the bet about Pineiro (and which TK ultimately welshed on, after AP transferred the bet to TK), I am going to pat myself on the back for a few things here.  Not that I would care much, except for the ridicule I took for merely proposing such things.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max liked to refer to it as rearranging the deck chairs, but the fact was that the Cardinals really only had one hole to fill that off-season and they did it with the best free agent available who came with a fairly hefty price tag.

But to keep it accurate, pay roll had not gone up and my "rearranging the deck chairs" comment was not a criticism of the Holliday deal, but a response to those who were claiming that this Holliday contract represented some new all-in financial contribution from DeWitt.  It did not, it merely reshuffled how the payroll was being spent.  AFTER that season, DeWitt finally started kicking in some more money.

And perhaps the only reason this is still relevant is that, while I was ridiculed at the time for suggesting pay roll could and should go back to the nearly $100M it had already been at, and then keep climbing to $110 or even $120 M, it has done just exactly that.  My arm being fully rested from the back-patting I gave myself after I won the bet about Pineiro (and which TK ultimately welshed on, after AP transferred the bet to TK), I am going to pat myself on the back for a few things here.  Not that I would care much, except for the ridicule I took for merely proposing such things.

Most teams payroll has gone up over the last 5 season.  Everything goes up over time.  Stamps are going up a penny again.  Shocking!

Like fors said, for me it isnt about money spent.  It is about needs adressed.  I dont mind "dry powder" as long as the team on the field is worth watching.  My guess is the teams has about maxed out there budget right now.  Especially figuring in Wainwright's looming extension.  Id rather they have money to spend.  Honestly the Cardinals are pretty smart.  The leagues top spender are all purging payroll.

Well Fors will have to address it then.  I have a hard time believing Pujols would have been seeking a contract half the size of what he got.  His agent would have been going apeshit.

The story was that Pujols told Chad he had suggested 5/$125M at some point before Howard's deal. Did it happen, I don't know. I've never seen a single report suggesting such an offer was ever made.

I don't think Chad intentionally feeds me misinformation, but recall he also told me about Luhnow supposedly having a 2nd family in the D.R. and that Luhnow was banging minor leaguers girlfriends in exchange for promotions, but we never heard that reported either.

That is opening day payroll.  For example the Cardinals took on a chunk of payroll in 2009 when they got Holliday.  Over 5 million.  they also added DeRosa.  That probably cost them 2 over 2 million.  I doubt they would have done that had they had the opening payroll they had in 2008.  Adding those two players in pushes the total up closer to the 2008 total. 

Also most of the savings between the 2008 and 2009 team was Izzy being gone.  Izzy was wasted money in 2008.  Still I am not sure how the 2008 team cost so much.  That team sucked. 

My point was look at the numbers.  2001 - 77mill, 2005 - 93mill, 2012 - 110 mill.  It is going up.  If we are still around 5 years from now I bet the payroll is higher then 110 million.