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11/18/2012 10:55 am  #1


New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

Hopefully this thread won't get hijacked with 8 pages of talk about former Cardinals.

Moz announces that the team is unlikely to non-tender any of its remaining arbitration eligible players: Freese, Mujica, Motte, Scrabble and Boggs. If they're bringing Mujica back, that suggests Rosenthal, Kelly and Miller are much more likely to be starters, either in St. Louis because of an injury or in Memphis.

http://m.stltoday.com/STL/db_294385/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=K7dD7FeS

 

11/18/2012 12:08 pm  #2


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

Meh on Mujica and Scrabble. I don't really buy the BS that Scrabble was bad because there was never another competent lefty to complement him. He has been a mediocre pitcher for most of his career followed by a solid postseason in 2011.

By the end of the year I was scared pissless watching Mujica pitch.

My prediction is that the rotation opens up as Wainwright-Carpenter-Lynn-Westbrook-Garcia. Since they're into giving second and third chances, all of Kelly, Miller and Rosenthal open up in the Memphis rotation. So we're looking at a bullpen of:

RH: Salas, Mujica, Boggs, Motte
LH: Scrabble, Proven Veteran

 

11/18/2012 12:18 pm  #3


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

I should add that the Cardinals are backing away from talks with Cleveland over Asdrubal Cabrera. The Indians want Rosenthal and the Cardinals balked. The only places where the Cardinals can improve are at shortstop and second base. Their most prized resource is the vaunted pitching depth in the minors which is full of guys who range from having ace potential to solid mid-rotation hands.

I think Rosenthal, Miller and Martinez should be untouchable. Kelly or Wacha only if the return is a middle-tier middle infielder.

And Lynn should not be excluded from any talks. I would part with him before any of the aforementioned, and that includes Kelly.

 

11/18/2012 1:43 pm  #4


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

"I think Rosenthal, Miller and Martinez should be untouchable. Kelly or Wacha only if the return is a middle-tier middle infielder.

Cabrera fits in that category, doesn't he?  I'll admit I know very little about his defense. When they first mentioned his name, the suggestion was he would play second base in 2013, then take over for Furcal.

     Thread Starter
 

11/18/2012 1:51 pm  #5


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

I agree on Lynn.  I dont know much about Asdrubal Cabrera but I like him better then Furcal.  The olny thing worst then Furcal would be Kozma.  The Cardinals have to expect the team the are trying to trade with to want there olny real trading chip.  Pitching. 

I think Salas, Mujica and Scrabble need to disappear.

 

11/18/2012 9:02 pm  #6


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

"The only places where the Cardinals can improve are at shortstop and second base."

And right field.

 

11/19/2012 11:33 am  #7


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

artie_fufkin wrote:

"The only places where the Cardinals can improve are at shortstop and second base."

And right field.

If they learned any lessons from 2012 it's that you can't run Beltran out there every day. With that in mind I'd say a Beltran that gets a day or two off every week will be a very productive hitter.

 

11/19/2012 12:59 pm  #8


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

tkihshbt wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"The only places where the Cardinals can improve are at shortstop and second base."

And right field.

If they learned any lessons from 2012 it's that you can't run Beltran out there every day. With that in mind I'd say a Beltran that gets a day or two off every week will be a very productive hitter.

That's a decent strategy. It was hard not to get greedy with him when he was hitting in the first half of the season, especially when they were battling for first place, but he really wore down in the second half.

 

11/19/2012 4:18 pm  #9


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

They really need some pop off the bench.  Badly!

 

11/19/2012 4:20 pm  #10


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

I think the biggest issue with Beltran was that he didnt understand that he needed to sit.  Matheny is going to have to put on his big boy panties and go against beltran next season.  He has got to rest.

 

11/19/2012 4:27 pm  #11


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

APIAD wrote:

They really need some pop off the bench.  Badly!

You were dissatisfied with Shane Robinson being the most potent right-handed pinch-hitter???

 

11/19/2012 4:30 pm  #12


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

APIAD wrote:

I think the biggest issue with Beltran was that he didnt understand that he needed to sit.  Matheny is going to have to put on his big boy panties and go against beltran next season.  He has got to rest.

Same goes for Holliday. I'd make Carpenter a rover-type guy. He can play four different positions. Screw trying to make Carp a second baseman. I'd live with Descalso at second for a year until Wong arrives.

 

11/19/2012 4:40 pm  #13


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

I think the biggest issue with Beltran was that he didnt understand that he needed to sit.  Matheny is going to have to put on his big boy panties and go against beltran next season.  He has got to rest.

Same goes for Holliday. I'd make Carpenter a rover-type guy. He can play four different positions. Screw trying to make Carp a second baseman. I'd live with Descalso at second for a year until Wong arrives.

I think Beltran knew it.  He played fewer games the year before and excelled down the stretch.  I think it falls on Matheny.  When Beltran was hot, Matheny didn't give him days off because Beltran was carrying the offense.  That's one of those things that was frustrating about Larussa, but was probably an example of him simply knowing better than the rest of us.  Larussa used to put together those get-away-game lineups that looked like a AAA team.  It was infuriating to see, but designed to keep guys fresh for the end.

Hopefully Matheny learns from some of these issues next season.

And I agree that Holliday is another one who needs to be in the 140 game club.  Two years in a row now he's broken down in the post-season.

     Thread Starter
 

11/19/2012 4:41 pm  #14


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

I thought it was interesting that when they sat Beltran they moved Craig to right and Carp to first.  Is Craig and his bad legs a better outfielder then Carp? 

I dont know who fits but it would be nice to have a guy that hits right handed, has alittle power and can play center.  Jay is an everyday player but he still has to sit sometimes.

 

11/19/2012 4:43 pm  #15


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

APIAD wrote:

They really need some pop off the bench.  Badly!

Think of the pop we'd have off the bench if they hired someone to play his position?

(uh, Beltran's, that is)

Last edited by Max (11/19/2012 4:51 pm)

 

11/19/2012 4:44 pm  #16


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

I think the biggest issue with Beltran was that he didnt understand that he needed to sit.  Matheny is going to have to put on his big boy panties and go against beltran next season.  He has got to rest.

Same goes for Holliday. I'd make Carpenter a rover-type guy. He can play four different positions. Screw trying to make Carp a second baseman. I'd live with Descalso at second for a year until Wong arrives.

Descalso isnt an everyday player.  I think he was over exposed last season. It wouldnt hurt to have a right handed option at second base either.

 

11/19/2012 4:46 pm  #17


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

forsberg_us wrote:

Larussa used to put together those get-away-game lineups that looked like a AAA team.  It was infuriating to see, but designed to keep guys fresh for the end.

Hopefully Matheny learns from some of these issues next season.

La Russa didn't call them games he planned to lose, but he an expression that evoked that.  I forget it what it was, but it was something about "stealing one".  You take your worst starter and pair him with your back-up catcher, you rest Pujols and key bullpen pitchers, and if you win you got lucky.

 

11/19/2012 4:46 pm  #18


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

Max wrote:

APIAD wrote:

They really need some pop off the bench.  Badly!

Think of the pop we'd have off the bench if they hired someone to play his position?

Beltran hit 32/97.  You dont put that on the bench.  This what his production could have been if Matheny would have paced him.  I hope he doesnt breakdown next year in Berkmanish style.

 

11/19/2012 4:50 pm  #19


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

APIAD wrote:

I thought it was interesting that when they sat Beltran they moved Craig to right and Carp to first.  Is Craig and his bad legs a better outfielder then Carp? 

I dont know who fits but it would be nice to have a guy that hits right handed, has alittle power and can play center.  Jay is an everyday player but he still has to sit sometimes.

If Schu is still with the team, he was their best defensive CF as recently as last year (as much as I root for Jay), even with all the retraining he got to work 2B.  I didn't watch this year, but I am remembering watching him make a spectacular catch and then gun ball the ball to first to catch the runner off for a double play.  The ump didn't see it that way, so it didn't count, but the replay showed in clearly enough.  Maybe that was postseason 2011?

 

11/19/2012 4:53 pm  #20


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

APIAD wrote:

Max wrote:

APIAD wrote:

They really need some pop off the bench.  Badly!

Think of the pop we'd have off the bench if they hired someone to play his position?

Beltran hit 32/97.  You dont put that on the bench.  This what his production could have been if Matheny would have paced him.  I hope he doesnt breakdown next year in Berkmanish style.

You do if he breaks down Berkman-ish.  We got one freebie year out of Berkman, and paid through the nose for a second year of zippo.  I fear the same could be true for both Beltran and Furcal, unless they are migrated to much less demanding roles.

 

11/19/2012 6:01 pm  #21


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

Max wrote:

APIAD wrote:

I thought it was interesting that when they sat Beltran they moved Craig to right and Carp to first.  Is Craig and his bad legs a better outfielder then Carp? 

I dont know who fits but it would be nice to have a guy that hits right handed, has alittle power and can play center.  Jay is an everyday player but he still has to sit sometimes.

If Schu is still with the team, he was their best defensive CF as recently as last year (as much as I root for Jay), even with all the retraining he got to work 2B.  I didn't watch this year, but I am remembering watching him make a spectacular catch and then gun ball the ball to first to catch the runner off for a double play.  The ump didn't see it that way, so it didn't count, but the replay showed in clearly enough.  Maybe that was postseason 2011?

Skip olny played 98 innings in CF last year.  13 in 2011. 1 inning in 2011.  23 innings in 2009.  2008 was his last year getting any real time in center.  Also Jay is a pretty awesome fielder IMO.  He takes the wierd routes sometimes but he seems to always end up with the ball in his glove.  With Berkman in RF in 2011 and Beltran in 2012 he has had to cover some ground and has done a good job.  He didnt committ an error last year.

 

11/19/2012 6:15 pm  #22


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

Max wrote:

APIAD wrote:

Max wrote:


Think of the pop we'd have off the bench if they hired someone to play his position?

Beltran hit 32/97.  You dont put that on the bench.  This what his production could have been if Matheny would have paced him.  I hope he doesnt breakdown next year in Berkmanish style.

You do if he breaks down Berkman-ish.  We got one freebie year out of Berkman, and paid through the nose for a second year of zippo.  I fear the same could be true for both Beltran and Furcal, unless they are migrated to much less demanding roles.

So you would sing an everyday right fielder to replace Beltran and put him on the bench?

 

11/19/2012 6:36 pm  #23


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

I didn't watch enough to know.  Last year they had guys ready for both RF and 1B, even though they had Berkman.  That meant a lot of bench time for Berkman or the guys.

 

11/19/2012 6:37 pm  #24


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

Yeah, I was surprised by how solid skip was when he came back and played CF, given that he got almost no time there.  I had forgotten how good he was defensively there.  I'm just saying that if we need a true CF to spell Jay, Skip works if he's still around.

Last edited by Max (11/19/2012 6:39 pm)

 

11/19/2012 7:36 pm  #25


Re: New 2013 Cards Hot Stove

They signed Beltran after they learned Craig was going to miss a month (at least) because of his knee surgery. If Berkman had been healthy, the plan was for Craig to be the guy who spent most of the time on the bench.

You want to talk about doing damage to your credibility with free agents, sign a career starter to a 2 year deal and have him spend year 2 on the bench. Not to mention how divisive the player might become. Look at how nasty Oswalt got last year when Texas demoted him to the bullpen.

     Thread Starter
 

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