What about Matt Carp.  they seem serious about giving him a try.

There's some finesse here, and I'm not saying they make an ill-advised statement about benching Beltran or Furcal.  But the fact remains that they were well-positioned this last year to let Berkman's "back-up" become the starter when he, predictably, went down.  All I am saying is that if there is a John Mabry-type who can be hired to be a bench player, but who can take over RF fulltime if necessary, it would add some insurance.  Similarly, a Tejada-type guy to be bench infielder, just in case Furcal et al. aren't cutting it. Otherwise, we go with what we have and try for a midseason upgrade if necessary and warranted.  But frankly, with the occasional exception, the Cards haven't been too good with the midseason upgrade thing.  For each Larry Walker and Matt Holliday, we seem to get a few Sterling Hitchcock's.

forsberg_us wrote:

"But frankly, with the occasional exception, the Cards haven't been too good with the midseason upgrade thing."

You're kidding right?

Yeah, Max, I'd like to read your logic here. The Cardinals don't make the playoffs this year if they don't get Mujica, and they certainly don't win the WS last year if they don't go out and get Furcal and fix their bullpen.

Max wrote:

OK, maybe I am focusing too much on the too little too late years such as Sterling Hitchcock and . . . Mike DeJean(?).

Good memory.  I had to look that up, but those were both 2003 acquisitions.  Of course 2003 didn't end well.  Well, it didn't end well for the Cardinals.  It ended pretty well for Cardinals fans (thank you Steve Bartman).

But sprinkled around 2003, you had moves like Will Clark (2000), Woody Williams (2001), Scott Rolen and Chuck Finley (2002) and Larry Walker (2004).  Even moves that didn't seem significant at the time, Jeff Weaver and Preston wilson, ended up being big parts of 2006. 

Even 2008 gave us Felipe Lopez and Joel Piniero.  Holliday and, to a lesser extent DeRosa were decent moves in 2009.

I think they've largely done better mid-season than they've done in free agency.

forsberg_us wrote:

(thank you Steve Bartman).

Indeed. [insert arrow pointing to my profile photo]

Max wrote:

OK, maybe I am focusing too much on the too little too late years such as Sterling Hitchcock and . . . Mike DeJean(?).

Don't forget Jamey Wright. I can't believe that guy is still pitching in the major leagues.

"Then they collapsed in that 5 game series against the Cubs."

Was that the series when Edmonds hit a ball into Lake Michigan, and Zambozo drilled him between the shoulder blades the next time he came to the plate? Or did that happen earlier in the season?

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Then they collapsed in that 5 game series against the Cubs."

Was that the series when Edmonds hit a ball into Lake Michigan, and Zambozo drilled him between the shoulder blades the next time he came to the plate? Or did that happen earlier in the season?

That was in 2004

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200407190.shtml

Of course. Now I remember Carpenter pitched that game and after Zambrano did his hissy fit thing, Carpenter chatted with Sosa behind the mound and told him if he didn't sit on that crazy loon, Sosa was going to be the one who ended up with a fastball in his ear.
Ah, what would have been if Carp hadn't missed the 2004 post-season ...

I read on the PD that the Cardinals released Brandon Dickerson so he could play over seas and Mo said that he isnt interested in multi year deals for relief pitchers.  That means more crapy lefties from the scrape heap.

forsberg_us wrote:

I seem to remember that 2003 was one of those year's where the Cardinals' bungled medical information came into play.  I have a recollection that Izzy started the season on the DL and was supposed to be out only briefly which turned into two or three months.  During his absence the bullpen was awful.

The starting pitching was also flawed.  Matt Morris was no longer an ace.  Woody Williams was probably their best pitcher.  Behind Morris and Williams, they had Brett Tomko (is he the original HWSNBN?), Garrett Stephenson and Jason Simantacchi. 

Compared to 2002 (Morris, Williams, Kile (Finley after Kile passed away) and Benes, and 2004 (Morris, Williams, Carpenter, Suppan, Marquis), the starting pitching left a lot to be desired.

Despite it all, they were briefly in 1st place in September.  Then they collapsed in that 5 game series against the Cubs.

But they probably should have won the division by about 10-15 games. 

Yeah, starting pitching was a real problem back then, because the cost in terms of AAV and years was so high that the Cards simply couldn't get involved, and their big home grown talent, Ankiel, imploded.  But even so, they were so close that had they added a starter and reliever in mid July, instead of August, they still might have won.

After the season they knew they needed to trade a position player for pitching, and Jocketty traded the right guy (partly because Edmonds cleverly had elective surgery right after the season) and send JD Drew and that speedy back-up catcher we had to Atlanta for Marquis, Wainwright, and I think one other pitcher.

Max, we'll just have to disagree on this issue.  The 2003 team wasn't a 98-103 win team.  Not with Tino Martinez, Bo Hart, Brett Tomko, Garrett Stephenson and Jason Simontacchi all being asked to play significant roles.

The Cardinals would likely have been fine but for the untimely death of Kile.  I can't tell you his contract status, but had he been in the rotation, the team certainly would have been better.  And an innings eater like Kile would have helped the bullpen.

2003 was just a year the dumpster diving didn't work.  For 2004, they replaced Tino with Reggie Sanders, Bo Hart with Womack, Tomko with Suppan and Stephenson with Marquis.  They also had this Carpenter guy who suddenly found his health and made a mid-season trade for Larry Walker.

But think of it this way--had the Cardinals made the playoffs in 2003, we wouldn't have been treated to the joy that was Steve Bartman.  Maybe they don't trade Drew (meaning no Wainwright).  Maybe they stick with Tino (meaning we lose a decade of Evan Rust references).

forsberg_us wrote:

Max, we'll just have to disagree on this issue.  The 2003 team wasn't a 98-103 win team.  Not with Tino Martinez, Bo Hart, Brett Tomko, Garrett Stephenson and Jason Simontacchi all being asked to play significant roles.

The Cardinals would likely have been fine but for the untimely death of Kile.  I can't tell you his contract status, but had he been in the rotation, the team certainly would have been better.  And an innings eater like Kile would have helped the bullpen.

2003 was just a year the dumpster diving didn't work.  For 2004, they replaced Tino with Reggie Sanders, Bo Hart with Womack, Tomko with Suppan and Stephenson with Marquis.  They also had this Carpenter guy who suddenly found his health and made a mid-season trade for Larry Walker.

But think of it this way--had the Cardinals made the playoffs in 2003, we wouldn't have been treated to the joy that was Steve Bartman.  Maybe they don't trade Drew (meaning no Wainwright).  Maybe they stick with Tino (meaning we lose a decade of Evan Rust references).

Actually, I think we saying almost exactly the same thing, Fors.  2003 was a flawed team that was historically great at the positions (4 starters in ASG, 4 GG, MV3), and deeply flawed--but fixable--at pitching.  I'm saying that was a disappointing year where the midseason fix was too little too late.  We should have at least gotten enough oomph from a midseason fix to make the playoffs.  Now, 2004 taught us that with Morris and Williams as our 1-2 punch against a 'roided up line-up and umps dying to see some new blood win the WS, we might have gotten our asses hand to us once in the playoffs, but as DeWitt is found of saying, "anything can happen" (which reminds, that was another thing that kind of irked me about him: make your team just good enough to make the playoffs and hope to get lucky, no need to design a pitching staff that can excel in the postseason, for example).

And FYI, didn't Tino play 1B for us?  in 2004 Sanders replaced Drew.  Pujols moved to first, and a platoon of Mabry, Anderson, Lankford, and Roger Cedeno played LF (in the pre Taguchi Era).  WJ didn't really dumpster dive in 2003.  Tomko was a bona fide FA pick-up that didn't deliver as promised: five pitches and a mid 90's fastball aren't all that effective when connected to a brain that doesn't have a competitive drive.  Hart and Simontacchi were the previous year's home grown Golden Boys that should have been dealt when they had any value.  Stephenson was a serviceable bottom of the rotation pitcher who ran afoul because he complained to the press, "give me 30 starts per year or I walk". 

They needed to add Hitchcock and DeJean--or ideally a starter/reliever combo even better than that--by early-mid July at the latest.  They could have dangled Drew at that time.  We badly needed to trade offense for pitching.