forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I'd say Ichiro must be operating with an inflated sense of self-worth.  Ichiro isn't anywhere near the kind of player that teams are going to be rushing out to sign.  I've read a couple of places that the Yankees are in hard on Nate Schierholz now that he's been non-tendered.  If they get a deal with Schierholz completed, they may not have any interest in Ichiro.

I've read a couple of times that Ichiro really wants to get to 3,000 hits in the states,  He needs 394 more.  He played pretty well for the Yankees, but overall his last 2 seasons have been pretty bad.  His OBP with Seattle last year was sub-.300.  And he better be ready to take a MASSIVE pay cut from the $18M he made last season.

Thanks.  That's more the conversation that I was trying to jump start. How do you say, "The Man" in Japanese?

No problem.  I just found it odd you started it in the Cardinals thread.  I thought you were suggesting we should be in on signing him.

As opposed to . . . Off-season Game Crap?  I guess I hadn't really been paying attention to where general FA stuff was being posted.  Ichiro and Pujols share a few career similarities: arriving in the majors the same year, both winning RoY, both put up unprecedentedly awesome offensive numbers over their first 10 seasons in MLB (covering the exact same years), both felt slighted during contract talks when it became clear their current team wasn't going to pay based on past performance.

There are obvious differences, such as Ichiro playing several season in Japan before coming to the majors, such that his career is just about over, and Pujols ultimately landing his payday, albeit not with the team he had hoped for.  Maybe it's just me, but I tend to draw a connection between the two, and reading that Ichiro felt dissed reminded me of Pujols, who didn't say it during negotiations, to my recollection, but who clearly felt it.

Last edited by Max (12/03/2012 6:22 pm)

"As opposed to . . . Off-season Game Crap?"

Yeah, we're using that link for stuff involving the other teams.

"both felt slighted during contract talks when it became clear their current team wasn't going to pay based on past performance."

I think any player who expect to get paid on past performance is in for a rude awakening. I can't say I understand all of the advanced metrics, but all of the teams are using them and have hired people whose job it is to understand them. It's very much a "what have you done for me lately, what can you do for me in the future" business.

Looks like the Cardinals winter meeting rumblings are Sean Burnett, Manny Parra, Mike Gonzalez and Scott Hairston.


I would lose Parra's number and I question why Hairson would want to play the role the Cardinals would ask of him.  He is coming off his best year and I worry that the Cardinals would have to over pay.

Also some word that the Cardinals are interested in Drew and maybe trading Furcal or moving him to second.  I dont believe that for a second.

"It's sort of like when Mike Hampton, Denny Naegle and Kevin Brown signed those long deals and flopped. Pitchers stopped getting those deals for quite a while."

Didn't Hampton and Neagle both sign those long-term deals with Colorado, pre-humidor? For a pitcher, that was the baseball equivalent of  buying a ticket on the Titanic.

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

Also some word that the Cardinals are interested in Drew and maybe trading Furcal or moving him to second.  I dont believe that for a second.

It would be hard to wheel Furcal, unless I'm misreading the market for aging, injury-prone shortstops who may need Tommy John surgery.

It's a limited market.  In the realm of supply and demand, Furcal has the supply side of the equation cornered.

The Cardinals have a real issue on there hands at SS.  Nothing they do is going to completely fix it.  Drew is an unknown after his injuries.  Even if he came cheap he might not be an improvement over Furcal.  Escobar doesnt completely turn me off.  Any type of plan B is better then praying Furcal becomes the healthy.  Then there is second base.  The problem is more the same there.

Sounds like the Cardinals are looking seriously at Scutaro and will definitely trade Schumaker.

I would prefer Yunel Escobar to Scutaro, even though he's a colossal dick, but if they can come away with one of those, Sean Burnett and Scott Hairston and stop bunting with fucking Jon Jay they probably win 93 games.

On second thought he is probably a better secondbase or SS then is what is on the roster right now.  He might be a cant miss given that he can play both positions and would be an upgrade at both.  I am sure he is what more then one year tho.

I have no problem giving Scutaro a reasonable contract for more than 1 year.  He could play 2B this year and move to SS in 2014 (or whenever they decide Wong is ready) or when Furcal gets hurt.

Check that.  Didn't realize he was 37.  Yikes, not sure I want to buy into a 39 year old Marco Scutaro.

Last edited by forsberg_us (12/04/2012 3:27 pm)

forsberg_us wrote:

"As opposed to . . . Off-season Game Crap?"

Yeah, we're using that link for stuff involving the other teams.

"both felt slighted during contract talks when it became clear their current team wasn't going to pay based on past performance."

I think any player who expect to get paid on past performance is in for a rude awakening. I can't say I understand all of the advanced metrics, but all of the teams are using them and have hired people whose job it is to understand them. It's very much a "what have you done for me lately, what can you do for me in the future" business.

I'll take your word on all of that, but realistically, the Angles paid way too much for Pujols, and even the Cards' final offer was probably way too much money.  Pujols will have to have Ruthian longevity down the back stretch of his career to make either one look like a good deal, based upon his performance from 2012 through the bitter end.  So, he kinda was being paid for past performance.  It made more sense for the Cards to offer to over pay him that for the Angles, though, so that's a bit of a head scratcher.  Maybe those advanced metrics guys think he's gonna be worth it?

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

Also some word that the Cardinals are interested in Drew and maybe trading Furcal or moving him to second.  I dont believe that for a second.

It would be hard to wheel Furcal, unless I'm misreading the market for aging, injury-prone shortstops who may need Tommy John surgery.

. . . unless the Cards pick up a big piece of his contract.  I would say that the Cards don't eat Adam Kennedy sized contracts, but that led to a blow up last time I did.  All I was saying is that if the Cards could find a replacement for Furcal, and if they could find a taker for Furcal, typically the Cards have not been willing to pay several millions of dollars to make a guy to go away. 

Speaking of eating contracts, one potential biggie that we might have overlooked: Tino Martinez.  I recall we traded Tino Martinez for our closer of the future, Evan Rust, but did we also pay some of Tino's salary?

Otherwise, last we tabulated, the biggest write-off we could recall was the $4 million for the last year of Kennedy's contract.  Thus, it might be the case that moving Furcal would require the biggest write-off in team history.

I doubt they'd trade Furcal even if they picked up a "shortstop of the future."  They still have a hole at second base.  Rather than pay Furcal to play elsewhere, why not move him to 2B (or move the other player to 2B)? 

Another name that was floating around in rumorland was Dee Gordon from the Dodgers.  The idea being that Gordon would play second this season then move back to SS when Furcal moved on and Wong takes over 2B.