artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

ESPN's Sunday Night game is Mets/Braves. Because the Mets are awesome.
 

Well, they do have Rick Ankiel now. 

Whose OPS is 1.073 since he got to New York. Not a lot of players have much of a shelf life after they get cut by the Astros.
 

Not exactly the same thing, but I remember once that a team which fancied itself as a contender grabbed a bullpen pitcher cut by the Royals and converted him into a starter.

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Didn't the Dodgers have AAAron Miles within the last couple of years?  And Adam Kennedy?  If so, along with Schumaker and Punto that's a lot of crappy ex-Cardinals utility players."

The oddity being all four of those guys have World Series rings. So does Glenn Brummer, but I'm just sayin' ...
 

David Eckstein is a former World Series MVP, I believe.  

When did the lawn gnome get a ring?

'06 Cardinals

Gawd, did we have him in '06?  I honestly don't remember that at all, when we got him, where from, or why.  It's all part of the psychology that erases bad memories.

Max wrote:

Gawd, did we have him in '06?  I honestly don't remember that at all, when we got him, where from, or why.  It's all part of the psychology that erases bad memories.

Miles was the starting 2B until they traded for Ron Belliard. 

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

Gawd, did we have him in '06?  I honestly don't remember that at all, when we got him, where from, or why.  It's all part of the psychology that erases bad memories.

Miles was the starting 2B until they traded for Ron Belliard. 

Lemme see, without looking up a thing:

1B: Pujols
2B: I'm drawing a blank . . . let's keep it that way.
SS: Eckstein
3B: Rolen
LF: Duncan
CF: Edmonds
RF: Encarnacion

starters: Carp, Suppan, Reefer, 
relievers: King?, Beldar?
Closer wound up being Wainwright

How'd I do?

Reyes started Game Four of the NLCS. He was hit pretty hard.

2006 was such a disappointment. They started out 34-19 and just flamed out from there until the postseason. That was the year it became evident Jocketty was losing his touch. Some of that wasn't his fault, but they were a mess. 

"There's also an alternative version, sort of a tin-foil hatted conspiracy theory, that the boss was pissed because Jocketty spent his money paying aging stars for past performance, and was concerned the trend might continue."

Paying aging stars outrageous money for past performance should get a GM fired. How's it working for Jerry DiPoto?

Max wrote:

I hear he was hired somehwere else, and that team has had a bit of success, though probably not on account of Jocketty . . . 

A big part of the core was in place before Jocketty arrived in Cincinnati. He's made some very good trades (Choo, Latos), but that was a team on the rise. 

forsberg_us wrote:

"There's also an alternative version, sort of a tin-foil hatted conspiracy theory, that the boss was pissed because Jocketty spent his money paying aging stars for past performance, and was concerned the trend might continue."

Paying aging stars outrageous money for past performance should get a GM fired. How's it working for Jerry DiPoto?

Depends.  If a place gets top players to work for discounts because it has EARNED a reputation for being a great place to play, then looking after aging stars with judicious payouts for past performance, such as Jim Edmonds' contract (after his leadership was instrumental in winning the World Series for St. Louis) might be an economical thing to do.   

I'd add one more thing. Go back in this thread and look at the list of bad overpays the Mariners have made in recent years. You can go back further and include players like Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre and even Ichiro to that list. No one is jumping over themselves to give discount prices to the Mariners. 

forsberg_us wrote:

Players want to come to organizations that win. I seem to remember you opined the Cardinals would have difficulty signing/re-signing players after Pujols left for Anaheim. Yet in less than 2 years, they were able to sign Beltran, and re-sign Molina, Wainwright  Craig, Berkman, Furcal and Carpenter. Not all of the moves worked out well, but the Cardinals didn't seem to have any issues getting people to stay. 

Good God, do I sense ANOTHER pissing contest?

Yes, I thought that DeWitt's handling of the Pujols extension negotiation would harm the club, as far getting guys to sign for discounts as "a good place to play", such as was the reportedly the case with Isringhausen, for example.  Another example, going way back, was Morris extending without an agent, just friendly discussions with Jocketty, if it can be believed.  

Has the club gotten any bargain contracts?  Dunno.  I haven't been following the discussions of the Garcia, Molina, Wainwright extensions, or the Beltran contract, to know if it was considered that the club was getting those guys for below market rate, and if they were, was it because the guys expected to win or because they believed it would be a nice place to live/work/play baseball.

I am in Bellingham because I believe it is a nice place to live, and my income takes a sizable hit because I choose to live here.  That's what I was talking about vis-avis the Cards reputation as a good team to play for taking a hit. 

The fallout from the Pujols negotiations have not yet played out like I expected them to, and I'm not sure why.  Could be I was wrong, could be it will take a while to learn what happened.  In the meantime, Tim Brown had an interesting piece on Pujols on the 22nd, in which Pujols was quoted: 

""Mark the day, the 21st of May, the day that I tell you that when I can no longer play this game, I won't stick around," Pujols says. "Trust me, I'm not going to stick around. People might say, 'He wouldn't leave that money behind.' "  He sneers."

Question: If Pujols does wind up walking away from significant money, will that be proof that your opinion of him--and by inference the negotiations--was wrong?

Last edited by Max (5/25/2013 6:39 pm)

"Question: If Pujols does wind up walking away from significant money, will that be proof that your opinion of him--and by inference the negotiations--was wrong?"

No. As I said before, Pujols equated respect and money. IMO, that's an ego driven fallacy. I could see walking away from significant money if he was embarrassing himself. Particularly if it reaches the point where his body has broken down. It's possible to walk away from significant money for selfish reasons. 

"I do not like what DeWitt has been doing with the franchise over the past 6 years.  That is very clear. The club swooned for a while.  2007-2010 was not a good stretch compared to 2000-2006.  But success has come back.  It might be frustrating for you if I choose to take the long perspective, but I really don't think we'll have a good grasp on whether the years 2007-2013+ were good or bad for the value of franchise, a measure that DeWitt currently owns, but which was largely built long before he arrived."

If you believe this, you're bordering on delusion.  The value of the Cardinals was in the shitter pre-1996. Dewitt and his group bought the team, parking garages and additional real estate for $150M. They sold the garages for over $50M. Simple math tells us the team was worth less than $100M. 

This year, according to Forbes, the franchise is worth $716M. That piece of real estate is where a majority of the new stadium sits, and the leftover property is finally seeing the construction of BallparkVillage (at least the first phase). 

But set aside cash valuation, on the field the team is 2 years removed from a World Series title and a year removed from playing in Game 7 of the LCS. They sport the best record in the NL (maybe all of MLB) and are universally considered to have the best minor league system in baseball.  There may be franchises with a higher gross value, but there isn't a franchise in baseball currently in a better position than the Cardinals. Sorry if it bothers you that Dewitt's franchise is the envy of almost every other franchise in baseball.