I'm not calling for Matheny's head Alz, and I've tried to be complimentary when I felt it warranted.  Last night was just really frustrating.

As an aside, I wasn't aware until I read about it today of the rule regarding suspended play.  Because Kansas City wasn't scheduled to come back to St. Louis, if they had suspended the game, the Cardinals would have been declared the winner since the score after the last completed inning was 2-1.  That's why they stuck around until 3:30 to finish it.

I think he's a bad manager, but someone that would be wonderful working with wayward youth

forsberg_us wrote:

I know you're not, and I understand what you're saying.  But my issue is, what are the roles of the guys he's not using?  

Larussa used to drive people crazy with his every changing lineups and the way he used pitchers, but Matheny is at the total opposite end of the spectrum.  You know better than I that you can't simply keep running the same 3 pitchers out there night after night.  Any manager is going to have games where his closer isn't available.  But it's inexcusable for a manager to have a situation where both his closer and his 8th inning guy are unavailable.

If I were to give Matheny the benefit of the doubt, it is possible to see some La Russa-ian patterns here.  One is to decide the games you are going to lose, and manage them in a way that does not jeopardize your chance to win the ones you plan to win.  La Russa spoke of competing in every game, but he also made some vague comments that implied he managed more competitively in some games than in others.

Another La Russian feature was to use the players the GM gave him, in the way they were meant to be used.  If the player fails, then either the player is not up to the task or the GM goofed in putting that guy on the roster.  Remember when La Russa would pitch K!p W3lls and leave him out there to get slaughtered?  I came around to the viewpoint that he was making a statement to the FO.  

Finally, this is a great time to show the holes in the roster, to hang the team's bare ass out for everyone to see.  Why?  We are off to a great start and there is plenty of time to fix the holes.  They need some pop off the bench and the need some bullpen help.  It's pretty obvious.

forsberg_us wrote:

I'm not calling for Matheny's head Alz, and I've tried to be complimentary when I felt it warranted.  Last night was just really frustrating.

As an aside, I wasn't aware until I read about it today of the rule regarding suspended play.  Because Kansas City wasn't scheduled to come back to St. Louis, if they had suspended the game, the Cardinals would have been declared the winner since the score after the last completed inning was 2-1.  That's why they stuck around until 3:30 to finish it.

No kidding.  That's what I was alluding to in an earlier post.  I am surprised they let the rain delay go as long as they did.  When I was a young boy I think surely they would have called it and let the Cards win.  Wasn't the delay last night more than 4 hours long?!?

Ah, then I misunderstood.  My recollection from when I ws young was that if I game went something like  5+ innings, and then was called.  The final score was the score at the end of the last complete inning.

I refuse to believe to this day that Tony La Russa ever did anything to deny his team a chance to win, Cement-head or not. La Russa had way too much respect for the game and for his guys (even Wells) to ever put them in a situation where they would be embarrassed or used as pawns. He might have put guys into situations to find out what they are made of, but never as a way of sending a message. That was never his style.

For chrissakes, this is the same manager who would talk about how tough the Pittsburgh Pirates were while they were losing 100 games. La Russa's competitive drive was not something that he merely used as lip service.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

Ah, then I misunderstood.  My recollection from when I ws young was that if I game went something like  5+ innings, and then was called.  The final score was the score at the end of the last complete inning.

 
The umpires had the option to do that, but with the drainage systems they build in the newer ballparks, they can resume play almost as soon as the tarp comes off the infield.

 

So, am I remembering correctly, and if so, what was the rule change instituted last year?
 

Max wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Max wrote:

Ah, then I misunderstood.  My recollection from when I ws young was that if I game went something like  5+ innings, and then was called.  The final score was the score at the end of the last complete inning.

 
The umpires had the option to do that, but with the drainage systems they build in the newer ballparks, they can resume play almost as soon as the tarp comes off the infield.

 

So, am I remembering correctly, and if so, what was the rule change instituted last year?
 

The rule of reverting back to the last completed inning went into effect either this year or last. 

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I know you're not, and I understand what you're saying.  But my issue is, what are the roles of the guys he's not using?  

Larussa used to drive people crazy with his every changing lineups and the way he used pitchers, but Matheny is at the total opposite end of the spectrum.  You know better than I that you can't simply keep running the same 3 pitchers out there night after night.  Any manager is going to have games where his closer isn't available.  But it's inexcusable for a manager to have a situation where both his closer and his 8th inning guy are unavailable.

If I were to give Matheny the benefit of the doubt, it is possible to see some La Russa-ian patterns here.  One is to decide the games you are going to lose, and manage them in a way that does not jeopardize your chance to win the ones you plan to win.  La Russa spoke of competing in every game, but he also made some vague comments that implied he managed more competitively in some games than in others.

Another La Russian feature was to use the players the GM gave him, in the way they were meant to be used.  If the player fails, then either the player is not up to the task or the GM goofed in putting that guy on the roster.  Remember when La Russa would pitch K!p W3lls and leave him out there to get slaughtered?  I came around to the viewpoint that he was making a statement to the FO.  

Finally, this is a great time to show the holes in the roster, to hang the team's bare ass out for everyone to see.  Why?  We are off to a great start and there is plenty of time to fix the holes.  They need some pop off the bench and the need some bullpen help.  It's pretty obvious.

Are you refering to when wells had to stay in the game after giving up several runs early.  Saving the bullpen is just part of baseball.
 

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Max wrote:

So, am I remembering correctly, and if so, what was the rule change instituted last year?
 

The rule of reverting back to the last completed inning went into effect either this year or last. 

You mean, prior to the rule, change, if it ended after 8.5 innings, they'd use the score of 8.5 innings?
 

No. It would have been suspended at 4-2 and KC would have had to find a time to return to St. Louis to finish the game. 

The rule change only affects a game in which the visiting team isn't scheduled to return to the home team's city. 

Different rule. A can game be called after 5 innings (4.5 if the home team is ahead). But, if the visiting team takes the lead in an unfinished inning, that rule doesn't apply. 

So, for example, if the storm that delayed Thursdays game had started after the 8th inning, they probably call the game and the Cardinals win. The box score would read KC 1, StL 2 (8). To signify it wasn't a 9 inning game. 

But in this case, the delay came after KC took the lead in the top of the 9th. Since the Cards had not batted in the 9th the game needed to be finished for KC's rally to count. Under the old rule OR, if KC was scheduled to return to StL later this year, they could have suspended play and finished on another day. 

Under the new rule, since KC wasn't coming back to town it had to finish or else the score reverted back to the last completed inning, in which case the Cards win 2-1(8). 

Your memory is correct, just a little different situation.