"Jocketty built arguably the premier National League franchise of this decade."

Wonderful, glad he is recognized for his accomplishment.

"How did Jocketty do it?  First of all, he was fearless.  A master wheeler-dealer, nobody did a better job turning lemons into lemonade, often flipping questionable talent for marquee players."

But once more, to be clearer, that is in 20/20 hindsight.  Nobody held a gun to those GMs head.  Nobody made the other GMs sit on their hands.  Worst case scenario, he did his job so well that no one wanted to trade with him anymore, and the game changed as a result.  That's the worst face you can put on it.  If Billy Beane changed the game by listening to the statisticians, Jocketty changed the game by proving that a good baseball man could beat all the rest when it came to horse trading, and so horse trading died.  I don't think it is quite that extreme, but that is closer to the argument than to say that "other teams would no longer trade players like Edmonds and Rolen for crappy prospects".  The other teams just knew that Jocketty knew better than they who would be good and who wouldn't.  Even Edmonds and Rolen were a lot better on the Cardinals than they were with the Angels and Phillies, so it's not simply that he recognized an over-valued player.  He also recognized the under-valued ones, as the article mentions.  

But in the end, there was a rap on La Russa back then that he could not manage young players, just veterans.  He rolled with the institutional shift and did just fine, managing the young players to a championship in 2011.  He was given the chance.  Walt was not. In the end, it was a struggle of personalities, not ideologies.  And Walt would stand up to DeWitt in a way that Lap Poodle never would.  

tkihshbt wrote:

Where did their payroll rank in '07 compared to now?

2007: 11
2013: 9

It is a long thread, so let me refresh your memory:

"Why bother to debate someone who begins with the premise "other teams would no longer trade players like Edmonds and Rolen for crappy prospects", when we both know that neither Edmonds nor Rolen arrived as a result of a trade for crappy prospects?"

At this point in the debate, TK, "crappy prospects" and "shit to gold" are each just an ironic homage to Fors's original false premise.

Max wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

Where did their payroll rank in '07 compared to now?

2007: 11
2013: 9

So...the needle hasn't moved much. 

I think you must have missed the string of the debate, TK, as this makes almost no sense within the context.

How so? You said that Jocketty was the only one of the 30 GMs who figured out that teams could get star players for shitty prospects. This is completely false. My last paragraph explains why teams make particular trades. It's not that hard to understand. 

tkihshbt wrote:

Edmonds and Rolen were not undervalued.

Hmm . . . again, you seem to have missed the thread.  Did Fors tag out, or something?  Because I don't want to play tag team debate if my score on one card doesn't carry to the other.

Last edited by Max (6/09/2013 12:54 am)

forsberg_us wrote:

I'm done. I've made my point..

Tag.  Back in?  Fair enough.  And we might have to leave it there if that's the way you feel.  

forsberg_us wrote:

Jocketty built arguably the premier National League franchise of this decade.

Especially since I note that the opinion that you quoted was that "Jocketty built arguably the premier National League franchise of this decade", and not "DeWitt built arguably the premier National League franchise of this decade."

Jocketty signed Carp as an injured 50/50 starter.
Jocketty traded Drew to get Wainwright.
Jocketty was GM when they drafted Pujols and Molina.  

God, how that must niggle under DeWitt's fingernails when he goes to bed at night.  Fire that asshole!

Last edited by Max (6/09/2013 2:55 am)

Max wrote:

Jocketty signed Carp as an injured 50/50 starter.

You're really shorting the genius that was Dave Duncan if you think this is Jocketty's gem. 

Jocketty traded Drew to get Wainwright.

Mozeliak traded three AAA lifers to get Holliday. 

Jocketty was GM when they drafted Pujols and Molina.

Mozeliak was GM when they drafted Shelby Miller, Lance Lynn, Michael Wacha, Joe Kelly, Matt Carpenter, Trevor Rosenthal and Matt Adams. He was GM when they signed Oscar Taveras. 

God, how that must niggle under DeWitt's fingernails when he goes to bed at night.  Fire that asshole!

I doubt it does. As of June 9 his team has the best record in baseball, they've got the best farm system in baseball and so many potential starters that someone is going to get stuck in the bullpen even though they don't deserve it. They have catcher, left field, third base, second base and first base filled for indeterminable amount of time. I have no idea why DeWitt would be aggravated when he goes to bed at night. His organization is the envy of baseball. 
 

Interesting! Thanks, I don't guess I heard that before. It's funny now that Max is applauding the Cardinals for signing Carpenter when he seriously derided them for it nine years ago. 

Max wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

It's funny now that Max is applauding the Cardinals for signing Carpenter when he seriously derided them for it nine years ago. 

Not sure if you are trying to be funny or what.  My first posts on the Yahoo board came a few months into the season of 2003.  Carp had already been signed and I knew nothing about him.  
 

Carpenter didn't pitch until 2004, at which point you were already complaining about them putting him in the rotation. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, though. There's no way of going back and checking on this.

Last edited by tkihshbt (6/09/2013 4:14 pm)

tkihshbt wrote:

My last paragraph explains why teams make particular trades. It's not that hard to understand. 

Oh yes, I see it here:

tkihshbt wrote:

That the Angels were dumb enough to think Kent Bottenfield was an acceptable return for Edmonds speaks of how stupid they were. 

Interesting take.  

We were blessed this Sunday. With it being confirmation week, the assistant bishop for the diocese visited and gave an outstanding homily that literally had me laughing and crying.  In it he quoted Mariano Rivera, whom he reported as having said: "the most powerful tool you have is your humility".  

I confess that far too often I have behaved as a know-it-all, and I apologize.
 

I agree with that, but not all winners are despised, and not all winners are despised merely for winning.  For whatever reason, humans have this thing morality and if you are going to win, it is important to win "the right way", whatever the Hell that means.  

If you win by taking your quiet, humble, naive superstar who carried you for 11 years, and throw him under a bus in a way so humiliaiting that he and his wife have a public breakdown of decorum and make asses of themselves, then that's not winning the right way and I have a uniquely human moral right to feel aggreived.

If you win by taking your strong-willed, independent minded, genius general manager--the man who built the best franchise of the decade by spinning shit into gold--and throw him under a bus because his arguments during club meetings to spend your money are too compelling to counter, and you are supremely worried what will happen in the next few years when it comes time to extend your superstar . . . or throw him under a bus, then that's not winning the right way and I have a uniquely human moral right to feel aggreived.

On the other hand, if you see that your GM, who was once so great at his job that he could spin shit into gold but who now is helpless in the new baseball model based upon complex statistics to predict the value of players when they are still young and cost-controlled, and you need to shit can him after repeated attempts at a graceful transition have failed, then you are winning the right way and you have a uniquely human moral right to feel aggreived if people argue otherwise.

And if you see that your aging superstar who carried the franchise for 11 years, and who once was quiet and humble, is now arrogantly making public statements about wanting to be a Cardinal for life with a willingness to sign for less if it means a championship ring for each finger, while privately sending out indications  that the only thing that will get him to stay is something close to the largest contract in baseball history, and you stick to your principles and offer him a fair deal, probably more than you should rightly pay him given his age and health, and he rejects that deal, signs for piles of money elsewhere, and makes an ass of himself in public by saying it wasn't the money, then you are winning the right way and you have a uniquely human moral right to feel aggreived if people argue otherwise.

In 5-10 years, we'll probably know which was which.

Last edited by Max (6/09/2013 6:56 pm)

tkihshbt wrote:

Max wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

It's funny now that Max is applauding the Cardinals for signing Carpenter when he seriously derided them for it nine years ago. 

Not sure if you are trying to be funny or what.  My first posts on the Yahoo board came a few months into the season of 2003.  Carp had already been signed and I knew nothing about him.  
 

Carpenter didn't pitch until 2004, at which point you were already complaining about them putting him in the rotation. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, though. There's no way of going back and checking on this.

You are claiming that nine years ago I was complaining about the Cards putting Carp into the rotation?  I highly doubt it.

The two things I remember clearly about the discussions during Spring was that someone on the board kept penciling Simontacchi into the rotation, and I would make fun of him, saying "Jason Simontacchi's little brother keeps thinking his brother will be in the rotation next year".  The other thing I remember clearly was Windy and I making fun of Garrett "give me 30 starts or I walk" Stephenson, who walked.

Another relevant thing from the period was that I was a ruthless critic of Tomko and held WJ responsible for saying something like "I gaurantee Tomko will produce".  There was a trade discussed that midseason for someone from the Mets I recall, maybe to deal Drew.  The point I remember was that the deal was considered imbalanced in favor of the other team, and to even it out, the Cards were going to require they take Tomko also!  Just Drew and its unfair for us, Drew and Tomko makes it even!  It's one of my favorite stories in all of baseball.

So, from the 2003 pitching staff, I was a vocal, sarcastic critic of 3 out of the 5 guys on the starting rotation, so I doubt I would have had much of a problem with them making some room for Carpenter.  

Last edited by Max (6/09/2013 9:58 pm)

forsberg_us wrote:

At a minimum, the Cardinals are despised in Chicago, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Washington, Atlanta and San Francisco. Probably Texas too. If the choice is being despised or having no one care, I'll take despised.

I kind of had this dicussion twice with cub fans in the last couple weeks.  The cub fan actually brough it up.  He asked me what i thought of the cubs.  I said i didnt really care.  He said exactly.  The discussion was how it is much more pleasant to be a cub fan jn st louis then a card fan in chicago.  

I think i only hate the reds and brewers.  I slightly dislike the dodgers and gaints but i pretty much ignore west coast teams.