Max wrote:

tkihshbt wrote:

I want him to leave now because I think he's completely lost it.

This would be the time for you to revisit your assertion about Jocketty, that it was obvious that the game had passed him by.  I'll get you started:

"Now, I know I said a similar thing about Jocketty, and all he did was move to Cincinnati and develop the Reds into our strongest competition within the division, on a smaller budget and with less to start off with, but this is why I think what I am saying about La Russa is relevant in spite of that . . . [take it away]".

Max, I'm a huge fan of Jocketty's, but you may be overstating the impact he had on this season's Reds team's success.  Here's are their principals, along with the GM who acquired them either through the draft/free agency/trade

C- Hernandez (Jocketty)
1B- Votto (Bowden)
2B- Phillips (Krivsky)
3B- Rolen (Jocketty)
SS- Cabrera (Jocketty)
LF- Gomes (Jocketty)
CF- Stubbs (Krivsky)
RF- Bruce (O'Brien)
SP- Arroyo (Krivsky)
SP- Volquez (Krivsky)
SP- Cueto (O'Brien)
SP- Leake (Jocketty)
SP- Harang (Bowden)
SP- Bailey (O'Brien)
SP- Wood O'Brien)
RP- Cordero (Krivsky)
RP- Rhodes (Jocketty)
RP- Massett (Jocketty)
RP- Andrusek (O'Brien)

Other than the acquisition of Rolen, Jocketty didn't have a hand in bringing any of the major contributors to the Reds success to Cincinnati.  I think you have to modify your starting line to "Now I know I said the same thing about Jocketty, but he moved to Cincinnati, inherited an outstanding core of young players, and took a calculated risk that Scott Rolen's shoulder would stay healthy long enough for him to assume a leadership role that helped that young core of players learn how to win..."

APRTW wrote:

TK, on your point about back up catcher I agree it is really stupid.  Do you or anyone else belive that TLR is fighting against anything and everything related to the new direction the Cardinals are trying to head in.  He has blocked almost every position player since Walt's firing.  Tyler Greene by signing Miles and Lopez.  Pazz and Anderson Laird by signing.  Ryan by singing Greene.  Craig and Jay by signing Winn and now Berkman.  He has issues with Rasmus.  I think he has supported Freese but he isnt from our system. The list goes on.  I believe he is throwing his wieght around to prove Walt/his way as valid.

AP, the issue I take with this is the notion that quality players are being blocked.  When given an opportunity, Greene has yet to prove he belongs at the major league level.  Anderson can't catch and doesn't understand how to call a game.  I admit, I would have liked to have seen Craig get a chance this season, but other than that, I think the biggest reason we have been forced to go the route we've travelled is because, with few exceptions, the farm system hasn't produced very good talent.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I think you have to modify your starting line to "Now I know I said the same thing about Jocketty, but he moved to Cincinnati, inherited an outstanding core of young players, and took a calculated risk that Scott Rolen's shoulder would stay healthy long enough for him to assume a leadership role that helped that young core of players learn how to win..."

. . . and therefore I argue that my original assertion that the game had passed him by is still valid."

That's definitely another way to go with it.

Max, I don't think the game has passed by Jocketty, but I do think its an overstatement to say he's the reason for the Reds success.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I certainly would have preferred that Jocketty have come out on top of the Jocketty/Luhnow dispute.

Artie put his finger on a point that has been bothering me for some time and it is that I have earned the image of being LaRussa's harshest critic.  Although I largely agree with the points that TK and Artie have made about his failings, I think my real problems are with the systems and the culture that sports have evolved into.

Somebody, I think it was Matthew Arnold, writing in the days when writers liked to play with style, said something like "It is true with both good men and bad men that each are less so than they seem."  As a generalization, I heartily embrace that statement.  And I suspect a similar statement could be made about good managers and bad ones.

I started off as a fan of LaRussa's when he came to the Cardinals, though I knew little about him and probably would have had more reservations if I had known more.  He impressed me as a really stand-up guy and I particularly admired his commitment to animal welfare.  I'm not a vegetarian and like myself less because I'm not.

I was also a harsh critic of Whitey most of the time he was with the Cards and second guessed him at least as often as I do LaRussa.  But I didn't have the internet on which to air my comments in those days.  I have become more of a fan of Whitey with the passage of time and I began that process at time when I thought Joe Torre was one of the worst managers in baseball.

In comparing the two, I think there are a couple of points to keep in mind -- and I may change my mind about them tomorrow.  Whitey never had a player like Albert Pujols.  In fact I'm not sure anyone in past 50 years has had one, except for Willie Mays.  If the Cardinals hadn't been smart enough to realize that Albert was almost one of the 400 best prospects in the draft in 1998, or whenever, TLR would have been gone 9 years ago, maybe 10.  And we may have a lot of problems with DeWitt, but I doubt any Cardinal manager has ever had less owner support than Whitey had when Old Man Busch left the game.

Both Whitey and Tony have an philosophy about hustle, seriousness of purpose, and discipline that I wish we had more of in sports and our educational system.  But Tony seems to me, at least in past few years, to make it all a lot more personal than he needs to and is something of a hypocrite in his lack of consistency.  As a consequence, I think he's created a morale problem that probably can't be fixed under his leadership.

Well, I need to fix coffee and get to grading papers.  Did I forget to say that I think Red could have done a better job managing the 2004 team than either Whitey or Tony?

"Artie put his finger on a point that has been bothering me for some time and it is that I have earned the image of being LaRussa's harshest critic."

If I offended you, I apologize. I was trying to be funny again and failed. I largely agree with what you've written, but I'd add the one constant in La Russa's managerial career is he's been interested in gaining the respect of people whose opinion matters to him - from Paul Richards and Bill Veeck in Chicago to George Will to his buddies like Parcells and Belichick - and I think that's been detrimental at times.
I'm quite sure all the criticism he absorbed in Chicago, mostly from the media, has made him very guarded, which is why he's so predictable and relies on numbers and statistics as much as he does. No one is going to criticize him if he brings in a left-hander to face a left-handed batter, but if he leaves the righty in and the lefty hitter goes deep, he's opened himself up to the second-guessers.
The irony is some of his most brilliant moments are when he plays hunches and goes against the all-mighty 3-by-5 index cards. He managed spectacularly in the 2006 post-season, particularly in the World Series, mostly because no one expected the Cardinals to win. That was the thing, or at least the perception, about Whitey that endeared him to the masses as much as anything. He beat teams with superior talent, primarily the Mets in the mid-'80s, because he managed like he had nothing to lose. Most of the time, La Russa tends to manage the other way around.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (12/16/2010 9:28 pm)

Veeck's and Richards' best years were a little before my time, but I like Parcells. He's full of crap. He knows he's full of crap. And he knows you know he's full of crap.
Several years ago, Belichick's rumpswabs in the media endeavored to reveal "the real Bill," largely the theory the guy who gives three-word non-answers at the podium is vastly different than the guy who hangs out with Jon Bon Jovi and rolls around with his grandchildren on the Gillette Stadium turf when nobody's watching. But that effort mostly ended when he started schtupping his secretary or whoever that bimbo was and then it died completely when the Spygate thing broke. Sell it all you want, but he's just a prick.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (12/16/2010 11:47 pm)

Well, there's moves that TLR that baffle me. Batting the pitcher 8th for example. Scott Rolen was an unfortunate situation, but I agreed with Larussa on the initial benching. It clearly turned out to be the right choice.

I guess where I end up having the reservations is when people call for him to leave. Then I'm looking at the potential managers out there to replace TLR and I'm reining in. There's nobody better who isn't already employed.

"I guess where I end up having the reservations is when people call for him to leave. Then I'm looking at the potential managers out there to replace TLR and I'm reining in. There's nobody better who isn't already employed."

I'm not calling for him to leave, but there are times I think a different approach might be beneficial. I guess what bothers me the most is what's been mentioned here before - the way he relies on stiffs like Randy Winn and Aaron Miles. Not necessarily because he doesn't trust younger players, but because those guys stink.

APRTW wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"I guess where I end up having the reservations is when people call for him to leave. Then I'm looking at the potential managers out there to replace TLR and I'm reining in. There's nobody better who isn't already employed."

I'm not calling for him to leave, but there are times I think a different approach might be beneficial. I guess what bothers me the most is what's been mentioned here before - the way he relies on stiffs like Randy Winn and Aaron Miles. Not necessarily because he doesn't trust younger players, but because those guys stink.

I dont know about that.  Tyler Greene is better then Miles and Craig is better then Winn.  There was no reason for either to be on the team.

That's what I meant. Miles and Winn stink.