alz wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Not for nothing, but had they charged the officer, I'm sure we'd have seen "celebratory looting". There's no concern over justice, it's all to be used as an excuse to hood yourself up and steal whatever you can."

Speculative, of course. The photos that were released last night of the officer at the hospital after he was "assaulted" by Brown are revealing. I've looked worse coming home from basketball.

Yes completely. That's why I said "I'm sure we'd have seen". 

There is no concern over justice, not for white vs black, or police officer vs citizen. I've also been blasted in the face under my cheekbone in such a fashion that it nearly knocked me out. Barely left a bruise. There were marks, so unless Wilson roughed himself up a bit before hand or after, it holds with his account of the events.

In my opinion there is no way to jump over Wilsons version of the events. Nothing he has said has been disproved. The testimony opposing him is that of Brown's friend who was with him at the store robbery and didn't stop it. Against a cop with 6 years of solid service, that doesn't get a guilty verdict. So without the ability to prove the crime was committed (which in a nutshell is the entire essense of US Law), the accused is innocent. They made the right decision I think. I am not privvy to everything the Grand Jury has seen, but from what I have read and seen from their presented evidence, I can't see how you prove guilt.

Browns bff and partner in crime, johnson, story was discredited from every angle.  Wilsons story was backed up by creditable witnesses.  This is so cut and dry.  If it wasnt for the national media grabbing this story an internal investigation woukd have been done or an investigation by an outside department.  Wilson would have been clear of any wrong doing and his life not ruined.  He is the victim here.  It is time to acknowledge that. 
 

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Not for nothing, but had they charged the officer, I'm sure we'd have seen "celebratory looting". There's no concern over justice, it's all to be used as an excuse to hood yourself up and steal whatever you can."

Speculative, of course. The photos that were released last night of the officer at the hospital after he was "assaulted" by Brown are revealing. I've looked worse coming home from basketball.

Thankfully police dont have to allow themselfs to be beaten or shot.  If wilson would have been brutally beaten, blood and swollen he would have made a serious mistake and put his wife in danger of not having a husband and his kids in danger of not having a father.  The old saying, it is better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.  Im glad the 12 got it right.  Wislons life likely feels ruined but at least he has it.  At least his family has him.  If brown wanted his life, all he had to do was listen.  Any step of the way brown had a chance to stop what happend.  Wilson only reacted.
 

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Nobody feeling remorse for Mr. Wilson and his life"

At least he still has one to live. Unlike Mr. Brown.

 

Police are not expected to die for the sake of a criminal to live.  It isnt okay for police to die and they shouldnt be punished for protecting their lives.  Brown took his own life by making poor decisions.

 "Any step of the way brown had a chance to stop what happend.  Wilson only reacted."

Absolutely false. Wilson initiates contact by telling Brown to get on the sidewalk. According to Wilson (again, we only have one of the participants' accounts because the other is dead), Brown then tells him, in so many words, to go fuck himself. A unarmed kid who just stole cigars from a store is going to tell a uniformed officer in a police car to go fuck himself?
Then, according to Wilson's testimony, he tells Brown to come to him (again, putitng into dispute the notion that Brown could have walked away).  Then Brown, according to Wilson, slams the door to the cruiser shut, and Brown assaults him. Then comes the part when Brown gives his buddy the stolen cigars, in the midst of administering this savage beating that caused Wilson to draw his service revolver? Is all of this some story that Wilson made up? Who knows? My guess is this was a relatively inexperienced officer who tried to bully a couple of young kids and the whole thing blew up on him, and then he tried to cover himself with a story that seems plausible to him, and - again - wasn't going to be contradicted by the other participant, who he happened to shoot to death. If anything, police officers and other law enforcement agents - the vast, vast majority of whom are highly-trained and compentent - ought to be outraged by the way Wilson handled this incident.

artie_fufkin wrote:

"He is the victim here.  It is time to acknowledge that."

Really? Wilson, who is living and breathing, is the victim, as opposed to the dead man? The testimony and photos that were released last night only show there are so many vagaries in his story it's difficult to know what actually happened. How did Wilson escape with only a puffy cheek and a red mark on the back of his neck if Brown came at him as aggressively as Wilson said he did? Why would Wilson say Brown reached for his waistband if he didn't have a gun? It doesn't make sense. Why would Brown turn and hand his stolen cigars to Johnson in the midst of administering a beating so savage the officer had no alternative other than to pull his gun, rather than his pepper spray or taser? And the only other participant isn't going to be telling his side.

Okay to address thingsmore directly. 

Wilson hasnt said he was beaten nearly to death.  Only that when he was in a struggle with brown that brown was stronger then him.  Bigger then him.  Had him at a tactical disadvantage by wilson beijg seated in his squad car.  The police do not have to fight fair. Wilson mentions his force continuum.  The police are allowed to use deadly force when they or others are likely to to recieve great bodily harm or death.  Being beat is great bodily harm.  If you dont believe you can control a subject and can articulate that as wilson did you have the right to use deadly force.  Wilson articulated it by stating of brown strength.  The fact show brown was bigger then wilson.  The fact show brown can be a violent man.  Brown also already battered wilson.  To the degree he was battered isnt really that important.  The struggle for the gun is a big deal in the scale of use of deadly force.

People reach for their waistband.  It is a minor point.  Maybe he disnt.  Maybe wilson just precieved that brown reached for his waistband.  We are talking split seconds.

Wilson addressed the taser and spray questions.  Again it js a very minor point as he was justified in usijg deadly force and doesnt have to justify why he didnt use less then deadly force.  However he addressed it And it is obvious.  First off wilson cant use spray in his squad car.  It will have the same effect on wilson as it does on brown in a contained area.  Outside of the squad car it is also obvious why spray is not an option.  One, you can miss.  Two spray doesnt work on everyone.  Three spray doesnt instantly stop a subject.  Wislon also adressed the taser.  He doesnt carrry one siting it as to bulky.  Wilson is 6ft 2 inches and 210.  That is fairly slim.  He may not have room on his belt to carry a taser and other tools he may need.  Also even if he did carry a taser it isnt an option he should habe to committ to in a deadly force situation.  You can miss with a taser and unlike a firearm you can shoot again.  Tasers dont always penetrate clothing.  With a person in motion it is very possible that a probe will not properly make contact and work.  However the main reason wilson didnt use his taser is likely he doesnt carry one.


 

artie_fufkin wrote:

 "Any step of the way brown had a chance to stop what happend.  Wilson only reacted."

Absolutely false. Wilson initiates contact by telling Brown to get on the sidewalk. According to Wilson (again, we only have one of the participants' accounts because the other is dead), Brown then tells him, in so many words, to go fuck himself. A unarmed kid who just stole cigars from a store is going to tell a uniformed officer in a police car to go fuck himself?
Then, according to Wilson's testimony, he tells Brown to come to him (again, putitng into dispute the notion that Brown could have walked away).  Then Brown, according to Wilson, slams the door to the cruiser shut, and Brown assaults him. Then comes the part when Brown gives his buddy the stolen cigars, in the midst of administering this savage beating that caused Wilson to draw his service revolver? Is all of this some story that Wilson made up? Who knows? My guess is this was a relatively inexperienced officer who tried to bully a couple of young kids and the whole thing blew up on him, and then he tried to cover himself with a story that seems plausible to him, and - again - wasn't going to be contradicted by the other participant, who he happened to shoot to death. If anything, police officers and other law enforcement agents - the vast, vast majority of whom are highly-trained and compentent - ought to be outraged by the way Wilson handled this incident.

I can tell you havent researched this case much.  You dont know wilson explanation of the taser or pepper spray.  You dont know that it was more then 2 young males walking down the middle of the road as recorded radio traffic has backed up.  If there is anything i can monday morning QB wilson on it is being in the squad car, at a tactical disadvantage and dealing with these subjects.  He paid the price for that decison.  One commonly made.  Im sure wilson never wanted to have to shoot anyone.  Nobody, almost nobody does.  I also think you are over reacting to the savage beating.  Wilson wasnt beaten within a inch of his life.  He didnt have to be to be justified in using deadly force. 
 

APIAD wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Is there any scenario in your opinion that brown could have cause his own death"

Absolutely. He could have pulled out a firearm and started shooting at the officer. I'm not anti-police, AP. I'm anti-incompetence.

So the only way the police can use deadly force is if deadly force is first used againt them first. This is head shakingly confusing. I dont understand how someone can think such things. Especially someone i know to be intelligent. More intelligent then me. I dont even know if i spelled intelligent right. However i know you know people can be beaten to death. You must not understand use of force at all or what the supreme court has decided as legal. Wilson acted very compently. He acted as trained. He acted as i have been trained. As fors was trained. As every police officer in america has been train. This is 101 type shit here. Your basicly saying that police should expect to die.
 

You asked for a scenario in which the death of a suspect could be justified. I gave you one. I didn't compile a list. And I'm not saying police should expect to die. I'm saying they should be competent enough to diffuse a situation before anyone dies.
 

 "He paid the price for that decison."

Sorry?? What price has Wilson paid compared to Brown? He'll never work as a cop again, and he may have to move to another community, but at least he's still above ground and breathing.
Let me turn the tables and ask you - Is there an instance when a cop shooting a civilian to death isn't justified?

artie_fufkin wrote:

 "He paid the price for that decison."

Sorry?? What price has Wilson paid compared to Brown? He'll never work as a cop again, and he may have to move to another community, but at least he's still above ground and breathing.
Let me turn the tables and ask you - Is there an instance when a cop shooting a civilian to death isn't justified?

 

Thousands of them.  Police are not more justified in taking a life then anyone else.  Honest truth.  If a man as large as wilson was going to committ a battery on you, kill him.  You have that right just the same as officer wilson. Police are put in situations that call for deadly force more then regular people because of the nature of their work but they are not granted the use of deadly force more then anyone else.  In fact they are more limited because of their training. 

Wilson did his job.  He did it well.  He is a national issue for it.  Maybe he gets a book deal and lives life happly ever after.  I hope so.  I also hope my family never goes through what his has had to because of a decision i make.  Especially a justified desicion.  It isnt fair. 

Could an officer responded in a manner that resulted in brown not dieing.  Probably but thats easy to say from my spot on the couch.

artie_fufkin wrote:

 "You dont know wilson explanation of the taser or pepper spray"

After reading his grand jury testimony, I'm not sure I'd believe him if he told me Thanksgiving is the fourth Thursday in November.

"I also think you are over reacting to the savage beating.  Wilson wasnt beaten within a inch of his life."

No, but a lot of the defense of the officer was "He was assaulted badly enough that he had to go to the hospital." As I wrote previously, after seeing those pictures, I've come back from basketball games looking worse than he did.

 

Fox news defense?  Cop always got to the hospital if they are injured much at all.  It is a work comp/ liablity type thing.  He likely would have went for a drug screen anyway after being involved in a shooting.  The pictures is also typical.  If it was a small scratch they would have took a pic of it.  It is 2014.

"And brown shouldnt have made better decisions?"

I guarantee he won't make the same mistakes again. 
I still don't know how anyone defends this guy's actions. The cop. Again, I would think members of law enforcement would be the first to identify him as an underqualified cop who should not have been put in the situation he was in. 
In my profession, I see people who are too stupid or too lazy to be reporters, and it frustrates me. If they can't spell or write a coherent sentence, I don't give them a pass under the rationale "Well, he/she needs a job so he can feed his family." I think they ought to be flipping burgers or working in a laundromat or some other occupation where they have less of an impact on people.

"Other then the fact that brown is dead what did wilson do wrong."

Other than the fact the Titanic ended up at the bottom of the ocean, it was a successful voyage.

APIAD wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Other then the fact that brown is dead what did wilson do wrong."

Other than the fact the Titanic ended up at the bottom of the ocean, it was a successful voyage.

 

But you cant improve ship building by simply saying we need to build them not to sink. You have to figure out why it sank and prevent it next time. Just like obama addressing this issue. He calls for change but doesnt say what to change.

I know guns are offensive to you. I can tell brown losing his life offends you. Still to add to the conversation you have to move past the end result and actually engage in the conversation. People still sail across the ocean.

That may be the heart of it. Let me expand on a story I may have hinted at. When I was in the Air Force, I played paintball. I got up early on a saturday, and went to my car with my gear. I connected the cannister, went over to a dumpster, fired three shots at it, concluded things were working as I hoped and put the gun back away. I was bringing back a rag to clean the dumpster when an irate neighbor started cussing me out because the "thunk thunk thunk" sound apparently startled him. I was 20, in prime shape, enlisted, so I offered a small apology and when he continued to yell, I told him he could happily go fuck himself. He then said he was calling the cops, and I told him that I would be travelling to Milstadt, IL and they could find me there if they needed me. I then gave him a middle finger and took off. 

I made it 3 blocks before cops pulled me over, jumped out with guns drawn and ordered me to put my hands where they could see them. At this point I knew there was a very clear misunderstanding. I had done nothing wrong. Instead of getting mouthy, or irate, I decided that a man had a GUN drawn on me, and decided to be as polite and civil as possible until we got things worked out. They were told I was shooting a firearm in the neighborhood, and was fleeing when a witness turned me in. When they searched the car, and saw nothing but the paintball gun, I was cleared. I'm very much alive and well today, and the first thing I did was punch that neighbor in the face and tell him if he ever pulled anything like that again I was going to seriously kick his ass. Why? I was 20, and that's how I handled things back then. 

The point is, I could have easily gotten myself killed, but I didn't. When dealing with the police a certain amount of respect should be employed. You can be angry at them for writing you a ticket, they understand that. However, violence towards anyone who's armed may get you killed. This is not exclusive to a police officer, and is nothing more than common sense to me. 

I don't consider Michael Brown a tragedy personally. The kid felt that no law applied to him. Not theft, manhandling the clerk, manhandling the cop, you name it. I won't miss him, I do feel bad that he completely screwed up Wilson's life with his choices. Wilson was a 6 year decorated officer, not underqualified, and I believe he made the right decision with the choice Brown left him.

I appreciate that you don't Artie, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.