Excellent info as always, Fors. Thanks a bunch.

Thanks Fors..

I must say I disagree with both batting Berkman 5th and playing him in RF.  When he plays home games he is going to be looking into the sun causing him to get late reads on the ball or last second adjustments.  Then again maybe he will be better at doing that then Holliday.  Does anyone know what kind of throwing arm Berkman has?  I also dont like the idea of batting him 5th.  I dont know that there is more pressure behind Holliday then there is in front of Pujols but I may be splitting hairs.  I think the most troubling idea is that they see Freese and Loshe as injury risk but have done little to address that issue.

APRTW wrote:

Thanks Fors..

I must say I disagree with both batting Berkman 5th and playing him in RF.  When he plays home games he is going to be looking into the sun causing him to get late reads on the ball or last second adjustments.  Then again maybe he will be better at doing that then Holliday.  Does anyone know what kind of throwing arm Berkman has?  I also dont like the idea of batting him 5th.  I dont know that there is more pressure behind Holliday then there is in front of Pujols but I may be splitting hairs.  I think the most troubling idea is that they see Freese and Loshe as injury risk but have done little to address that issue.

I think the sun is only an issue during the late afternoon--by the end of 3:00 games or the beginning of 6:00 games.  They only have those when they have to accommodate network TV, so there shouldn't be many.

I think Berkman's throwing arm is considered below average.

Chad's explanation of the batting order is that without a better #5 hitter, teams could still pitch around Pujols, take their chances with Holliday by pitching him down and away to see if he got himself out, but if not, then going after Rasmus (or whoever else is hitting #5).  The reason they think Berkman is a better fit is because he's a proven RBI guy, and if Pujols and Holliday reach base as often as they normally reach base, then it diminishes the need for Berkman to hit HRs to drive in runs.  Singles should drive in 1 run and an extra base hit will drive in a couple.

The whole plan assumes that Berkman's 2010 was the result of an injury which has since healed and not the start of his decline as suggested by Max and Artie.

forsberg_us wrote:

Chad's explanation of the batting order is that without a better #5 hitter, teams could still pitch around Pujols, take their chances with Holliday by pitching him down and away to see if he got himself out, but if not, then going after Rasmus (or whoever else is hitting #5).  The reason they think Berkman is a better fit is because he's a proven RBI guy, and if Pujols and Holliday reach base as often as they normally reach base, then it diminishes the need for Berkman to hit HRs to drive in runs.  Singles should drive in 1 run and an extra base hit will drive in a couple.

The whole plan assumes that Berkman's 2010 was the result of an injury which has since healed and not the start of his decline as suggested by Max and Artie.

I am not to worried about the order because TLR changes it everyday anyway.  If they are  not producing enough runs I am sure he will try something else. 

However my reasoning for batting Berkman second is simple, he walks.  He has alwaysed walked.  Rasmus strikes out and likes to hit HR.  If you are going to have an all or nothing approach I feel that is better suited behind Holliday because Freese, Yadi and Skip are not going drive in many runs anyway.  The strong parts of Bekmans game is going to be his OBP so it only seems logical to place him in front of RBI guys.  If you have a pitcher who isnt going to go after hitters berkman, Pujols and Holliday are going to make them throw some pitchs.  All three would be willing to talk a walk.  Rasmus would be less likely.

Well, it's the bed that Moz has made so we need to lie in it. I don't like the prospect of sticking Berkman in the outfield at all, but we have him. The notion of him playing on that side of the field makes sense in a bizarre way, but I'll go out on a limb and say he doesn't win a gold glove out there.

I understand the reason for him batting 5th, it makes sense to me. Rasmus is not feared, and a borderline head case. Nobody would pitch to Holiday or Pujols when they could go after Rasmus instead. They might second guess that with a switch hitting (well kinda, he's shit from the right side) veteren.

But like it or leave it, it's what we have. I'm just hopeful the Pujols deal isn't a myth, that will make my Christmas.

forsberg_us wrote:

No clue who the 6th starter would be.

If the owners pulled some more money out their ass it looks like Pettitte will be available.  In a way, it sounds like a move the Cardinals would make because you probably pay him $10 million for one season and be done with it.  It would create a very interesting rotation, and be a good "Win now", Berkman-style roster move that DeMo could trumpet as a response to the improvements in Milwaukee.

Max wrote:

APRTW wrote:

Theriot
Rasmus
Pujols
Holliday
Berkman
Yadi
Freese
Pitcher
Skip

TLR's fetish with batting Yadi to high in the order is worst then batting the pitcher 8th but that is my guess of the opening day lineup.

One thing no one has talked about, but i think would be interesting would be to bat Holliday in front of Pujols, whether 2-3, or 3-4.  First off, Holliday would see some incredible pitches and we would have a bona fide .400 OBP guy in front of Pujols.  Secondly, Pujols is so good that it's like the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen, yeah Pippen is real good but the guy you HAVE to stop is Jordan.  So they are still pitching around Pujols in many cases, even with Holliday.  So an order something like this would be interesting, too.

Theriot
Rasmus
Holliday
Pujols
Berkman
Freese
Yadi
Pitcher
Skip

I think TLR tried Holliday/Pujols for awhile last year when the former was struggling, and it jump started him. I don't remember how Pujols fared. It's certainly an interesting idea and your logic is solid, but I think if you asked La Russa he'd say he'd want to get Albert the 20-30 extra PAs over 162 games he'd get at three instead of four.
My other comment would be that if I'm pitching to that lineup, I'd like the idea of not having to face Pujols in the first inning. And if he happens to come up with runners on base and one or two outs in the first inning, I'm just going to walk him and pitch to Fudgie the Whale.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (12/23/2010 7:37 pm)

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

- The team did extensive medical tests on Berkman's knees (insert joke about Cardinals' medical staff here) and are convinced they can get 130 games out of him in the outfield (not necessarily complete games as he'll likely be lifted often for defensive support).

Remember that his offense last year was nearly as bad as his defense.  Do they think his knees caused his off-year at the plate, and that that phase of his game will rebound?

Yes. That's exactly what they believe/hope.

forsberg_us wrote:

- Freese's ankles are more of a concern than the team is letting on.  Not because he isn't healing or rehabbing well, but because he apparently simply has small ankles for a man his size.

FWIW, when looking at the old news reels, it has often caught my attention that the Bambino appeared to have very small ankles for a man his size.

artie_fufkin wrote:

I think TLR tried Holliday/Pujols for awhile last year when the former was struggling, and it jump started him. I don't remember how Pujols fared. It's certainly an interesting idea and your logic is solid, but I think if you asked La Russa he'd say he'd want to get Albert the 20-30 extra PAs over 162 games he'd get at three instead of four.
My other comment would be that if I'm pitching to that lineup, I'd like the idea of not having to face Pujols in the first inning. And if he happens to come up with runners on base and one or two outs in the first inning, I'm just going to walk him and pitch to Fudgie the Whale.

I believe it jumps started the whole offense for about a half a game.  If I remember right they had a big first inning and then went back to sucking.  It did help Holliday get going. 

I like the idea of batting Pujols 4 but wouldnt do it all the time.  My opinion is if the leadoff and second hitter at making outs like they did in 2010 then you might as well have leading off the next inning.  I rather have Pujols batting with nobody on and no outs then two outs.

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

I'm just going to walk him and pitch to Fudgie the Whale.

Just wait until Berkman reports to camp at a svelte 190.
(happy) (happy) (happy)

He's having both legs amputated?

Max wrote:

Or if you REALLY wanted to get experimental:

Rasmus
Holliday
Pujols
Berkman
Freese
Yadi
Pitcher
Skip
Theriot

I like the idea of Rasmus batting with some protection IF he is willing to be coached into learning how take pitches and draw walks, and bat for average and power, not just power.  So, if Holliday is protecting Rasmus and Pujols is protecting Holliday, with Berkman and a bunch of question marks bringing up the rear, I envision opposing pitchers walking on egg shells from the opening pitch, worried about letting anybody on base.  Even if Berkman has lost his power, he can still hit a single, and that's all it will take if someone gets on, and they pitch around Pujols, putting him on base.

The pitcher is batting seventh?