and from the same thread, this:

"it's all just my opinion from what i am seeing. i'll want to see each guy pitch some more before i make any predications, but if things go the way they have been, i would expect the effectiveness of both penny and carp to erode, penny much more quickly than carp. but on the present course, i'd expect that by august 1st, Penny would have an ERA in the 4.0 - 4.5 range, and Carp in the 3.0 - 3.5 range. call me crazy, if you like, but do please note "on the present course", i.e. i want to see them all pitch some more. FWIW, using the same guesstimate system, wainwright and garcia will both be down in the low to mid 2's."

http://messages.yahoo.com/Recreation_%26_Sports/Sports/Baseball/Teams/threadview?m=ms&bn=7737423%232006cardinals&tid=60891&mid=60945&tof=354&rt=1&frt=2&off=1

There, now my arm feels like it's had a good workout again.

BTW we just got swept by the Chicago Cubs . Venting is good , sometimes, I think, maybe, unless somebody gets killed .

and while I'm full of cheap wine, this is Fors:

"Other than 1 bad start, I'm not sure exactly what you're basing this on Max.

Even including the start in Milwaukee, Carpenter is holding hitters to a .196 avg (compared to .235 in 2006 and .229 in 2009) and his WHIP is 1.05 (compared to 1.07 in 2006 and 1.01 in 2009). Plus his strikeout per 9 inning ratio is much higher this season, although it's admittedly a small sample size.

Carpenter is the least of their concerns right now. I'd take Carpenter, Wainwright, Penny, Garcia v. Halladay, Hamels and whatever 2 other starters Philadelphia would line up."

The operative phrase being, "right now", as in 6-May-2010.

At the moment Carpenter remains the best starter on the Cardinals if not the National League, Wainright is still top three or four with decent backup in the field and at bat, Garcia has had a fine season as a rookie. Thats where the starting pitching ends. They have tried a busted wing and a prayer with Lohse and Supan, and Penny was never in the mix. We have run through several other 4th and 5th starters on the hope that "somebody can play this game," but they have either not been ready or not up to the task. We have one exceptional offensive player in Pujols, Holliday and Rasmus can swing the bat, and Yadi chimes in occsionally, but his great value is his handling of pitchers, great arm, and exceptional defense. The rest of the position player are mediocre to awful offensively, and  average or less defensively. Freese's injury hurt, but though he played well for the short time he was healthy he has yet to prove himself over a long season. The bullpen has some decent talent, but is inconsistant, Franklin may be a nice guy, but he is not a closer. It is amazing that these guys hung in the race so long, and speaks to the quality of the Central Division. The talent in the NL is not great this year. I see the Phillies as the class of a mediocre group, Atlanta's no names seem to have some talent, and I like the Giants in the West. The Pads and Rockies aren't going to play with the good or great teams of the NL past. I have always had mixed feelings about Larussa, and his job this year just reflects my ambivelance. Moz does what Dewitt wants, and Dewitt doesn't want to spend money. I suppose he is saving up to sign "the drawing card" Pujols, but meanwhile, and for the forseeable future we are looking at spending the playoffs watching the NFL and NCAA football ( Go U. of Montana Grizzlies), and getting ready for the NHL (Rangers!), and NBA Seasons. Oh well the Hamilton Tiger Cats are tied for second in the CFL East, and the Newcastle United Magpies are back in the Premier League with Darth's "Gooners" from Arsenal. The Redbirds and Springfield made excellent showings and the guys in "The Show" are mostly doing their best. Lets go Cardinals! Maybe next year

Last edited by butteminers (9/16/2010 11:12 am)

You could probably make a decent argument that losing Penny was the thing that doomed the season. He pitched pretty well when he was healthy, and they never really replaced him until they traded for Westbrook, which cost them Ludwick, whose absence has made their lineup that much more ordinary.
We can point the finger at Penny, or whoever decided that he was good for 30 starts, or whoever maintains the philosophy of diving into a cesspool and hoping you'll find a diamond among one of the turds is a way to put together a winning baseball team.

artie_fufkin wrote:

You could probably make a decent argument that losing Penny was the thing that doomed the season.

It wasn't JUST that:

1. losing Penny & the continued ineffectiveness of Lohse resulted in us needing to get another starter.
2. the loss of Freese & the offensive dips--Schumaker & Ryan--left us with a below average offense.
3. Ludwick's trade (which I argue was going to happen, regardless) winding up not being a net improvement over our opening day roster (whereas we can hope they were going to try to get something good for him), partly owing to the need for a starter, but more due to DeWitt's inscrutable payroll restrictions that Moz had to deal with, such that:

by August 1 we were a decidedly worse team than we were on April 1, whereas our competitors had all made "legitimate" improvements, such that they were all better.

Kris Benson? Is he still alive?

These are the guy I think the Cardinals will look at the most.  I think they will wait till April to sign which ever one falls through the cracks. 

Bronson Arroyo
Jeremy Bonderman
Aaron Harang
Ted Lilly
Kevin Millwood
Vicente Padilla
Carl Pavano
Ian Snell
Brandon Webb
Jake Westbrook
Chris Young