Max it must be wonderful to be able to sit 2,000 miles away and tell me what I'm trying to do.  But since you aren't nearly as wonderful or as smart as you think.  This has nothing to do with Walt Jocketty.  Let me help you.

You said: Westbrook trade bad then and now

Me said: Don't think many believe so now

You said: It obvious. Team not make playoffs.  Could have signed Westbrook and traded Ludwick for other parts.  Obvious bad trade

Me said:  Holliday trade pretty much same.  Win 0 playoff game.  Could have signed Holliday and traded Wallace, etc... for other parts.

Me ask question (still not answered): That make Holliday trade a bad trade?

You say: Made playoffs with Holliday

Me say: What point of making playoffs if no win games

You say: GM fault if no win playoff games, but trade good if make playoffs

Me ask question (still unanswered): If trade good, do GM who make trade get credit?

You say: Jocketty treated mean after Mulder trade (Me not sure where Jocketty comment come from, but for record, me thought Mulder trade was good idea.)

Back to original point: If Westbrook trade =  bad trade because no make playoffs and could have signed after season, then why not Holliday trade bad trade when team get swept in LDS and could have signed Holliday after season?

That is my point about Dempster.  After not starting for four years he has a great year and you think he can live up to a four year contract as a starting pitcher.  Loshe and Dempster are about the same pitcher for their career.  I wasnt impressed with Dempster in the bullpen.  He got over 50 of those saves while posting a near 5ERA. 

Here are there 162 game averages.

Loshe 11-12, 4.79 ERA, 191 innings
Dempster 9-9, 4.37 ERA, 168 innings


There isnt much difference there.  I would have give the 4 year contract to Loshe before Dempster because of a steady history as a starter instead of a guy who had bounced around from pen to rotation.  Loshe is also a couple years younger.  By giving those guys contract like they got the teams are asking the two players to pitch better then they ever had.  Picking which one would fullfill the expectations of their conrtact at the time of the signing could have been settled by flipping a coin.  Personally I would have guessed Loshe with the Cardinals over Dempster with the Cubs but it is easy to see how that is turning out.

I dont see Westbrook's contract as a mistake at all.  I dont think they over paid for him either.  Sure some pitchers might have gone for less but as in the Loshe signing the club thinks they know what they are getting.  That is why they are willing to go after guys that have spent time on the team instead of chasing FA.  There is some value in the known. 

I think they spent more in money and years on Loshe then he was worth.  However with the pitching market at the time and team's needs I understand why they did it.  I also think Loshe would mean alot to this team if he was plunked in arm.

forsberg_us wrote:

I just don't understand how Max can argue that the Westbrook contract is a mistake while arguing that Lohse's wasn't.

This is also where you are still not getting it.

I know now is the time to be high about your team but I am not feeling it.  I think the offense will be better then last year.  How could it be worst?

However I dont see Garcia posting a sub 3 era.  Carp is regressing and his 3.2 era over 235inning and an injury free year is going to be hard to match.  Westbrook might be a 3.5 era pitcher but you cant expect any more then that from him.

don.rob11 wrote:

Garcia's line vs. Mutts :

4 IN
9 H
8 R
7 ER
0 BB
2 K's
2 HR

The line is a little deceptive because there was a fly ball that got lost in the sun that turned into a couple of runs, but it's still not good.

artie_fufkin wrote:

Everything on the mound, including McClellan's conversion to a starter, has to break right and no one can get hurt. The other disconcerting thing is who replaces McClellan's spot in the bullpen.
There are major defensive concerns in the middle of the infield and in RF, and another injury to Freese is a huge problem.
And I'm not sure competing in the NLC is the same as it was. As loathesome as they are, the Reds are pretty darn good, and the Brewers ought to have much better starting pitching.
The Cardinals are a third place club right now.

I agree except about Freese.  Matt Carpenter seems to be pushing his way into consideration.  Caig is hitting this spring as well.  If that carries over into the regular season I am alot happier about third base then I was last year at this time.  Nobody really wants to rush Carpenter or watch Craig fumble grounders but it is alot better then watching Thurston or Feliz.

One of the more concerning things to be is Motte.  If McCellan is going to the rotation this roster really needs him to set up.  If not him then Boggs or Salas is going to have to fill that role.  Boggs has been able to get much work yet do to his injury.

I think the 25 man is pretty much set.

SS Theriot
CF Rasmus
1B Pujols
LF Holliday
RF Berkman
C Molina
3B Freese
2B Skip

2B, SS, 3B,CF Greene
RF, LF, 3B Craig
RF, CF, LF Jay
C Laird


SP Carp
SP Westbrook
SP Loshe
SP Garcia
SP McCellan

CL Franklin
SU Motte
SU Salas
MI Boggs
LS Miller
LS Tallet
MI/LR Batista

the question really in my mind is if they will go with Daniel Descalso or a 13th pitcher.  Matt Carpenter isnt going to get on the opening day roster because they want him to play everyday and the also want to see if Freese can live up to what little we have seen of him.  Only one of those guys can be stored in the minors.  Carpenter might get a chance if freese sucks or gets injured.  If it is a 13th pitcher it is really anyones guess who that could be.

Artie what do you think about the Dice K rumors?  I havent watched him in a while since he plays in a league that doesnt matter.  I know he was killer when he first came over and hitters didnt have a book on him.  If he accepted a trade to the Cardinals he would be pitching in a pitcher friendly ballpark and league.  Hitters would also not have seen him before.  I just dont know if he is a top of the rotation pitcher anymore.  I believe he is a Boras guy but I think Boras would be in favor of such a trade in his walk year.  The rumor I read said that the red Sox's are looking to built the catcher position within their system.  Anderson might fit that mold.  He is clearly useless to the Cardinals. 

Other pitcher to be had are Millwood who still doesnt have a contract and Oliver Perez who is going to be released by the mets.  Both of those guys are projects with lower ceilings.  Dice K at the level he pitch when he came to the league would give the Cardinals a fair one two punch.

Source: Red Sox open to trade talksEmail Print Comments171 By Gordon Edes
ESPNBoston.com
Archive
FORT MYERS, Fla. -- With less than three weeks to the April 1 regular-season opener, the Boston Red Sox have let it be known that a number of players could be available in a trade, according to a major league source.

The Red Sox would move pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, who has a full no-trade clause, if they could add to their young catching inventory, the source said. Veteran Tim Wakefield is on the bubble, according to the source, and might be available for left-handed relief help. The Sox would also consider moving one of their two veteran right-handed hitting outfielders, Mike Cameron or Darnell McDonald, with interest in Cameron expected to increase as he plays more. Cameron was starting in left field here Saturday. With young outfielders Ryan Kalish and Josh Reddick still having options, the team's thinking is it could afford to lose one of the veterans, with Cameron obviously having the most value in a trade.

Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein on Saturday night vigorously dismissed the accuracy of the ESPNBoston.com report, calling it "false."

The source said the Red Sox would also listen to any offers on veteran shortstop Marco Scutaro, who at the moment is projected as Opening Day shortstop. The Red Sox have options in Jed Lowrie and top prospect Jose Iglesias, who could play defensively on the big league level right now. Scutaro's versatility -- he can also play second and third -- might make him attractive to teams in need of infield help.


Red Sox: Spring Training 2011



As all eyes turn to Fort Myers to watch the Red Sox prepare for the season, ESPNBoston.com has you covered!
Spring Training Center | Sox blog

Matsuzaka's future may depend on whether the club decides it has enough starting depth in the rotation. They have Wakefield, promising left-hander Felix Doubront, former Yankee Alfredo Aceves, who will start Monday night against the Yanks, and Michael Bowden, described by the source as a "grinder.'' Bowden pitched two scoreless innings Friday in Kissimmee, striking out two. Andrew Miller could also start the season as a starter in Pawtucket, though the bullpen appears a more likely destination.

Matsuzaka is 0-1 with a 11.42 ERA in three spring starts, so teams aren't exactly falling all over themselves in pursuit of the Japanese right-hander. He gave up five runs on five hits in 3 2/3 innings, and averaged just a touch over 89 miles an hour on his fastball, well below the velocity he showed when he first came to the Red Sox four years ago.

"His rhythm was all out of whack,'' the source said. "I don't know if it's because that's what the team wants, but I think he's become too much of a conventional pitcher. He's got to go back to pitching 'left-handed' again, dropping down at times, throwing from all kinds of angles, turning the ball over. He's not doing that as much.''

Matsuzaka is due to be paid $10 million in 2011. His salary, no-trade clause and performance all would make a trade difficult. The Red Sox almost surely would have to eat a significant portion of that contract. Matsuzaka became the first Japanese pitcher to win a World Series game in 2007 after going 15-12 in his debut season. He went 18-3 with a 2.90 ERA as an encore in 2008. But the past two seasons have been a downward spiral in which Matsuzaka has been out of shape, hurt, ineffective or all of the above, the wins coming with infrequency -- four in 2009, nine last season.

Aceves is becoming an intriguing candidate. The Yankees nontendered him because of back issues, but Aceves insisted that he knew his back was OK at the end of last season, and he could have pitched in the playoffs. Another big league source said the Yankees also thought that Aceves would need more time to recover from a bicycle accident in which he fractured his collarbone and had concerns that his shoulder also was hurt in the fall, but the Red Sox pounced when they determined he was healthy.

The Red Sox are leaning toward having Aceves open the season as a starter in Triple-A. If he continues to progress, he would offer the Red Sox a viable alternative to Matsuzaka.

Wakefield's future could well depend on whether the Red Sox keep one or two left-handers in the bullpen. Manager Terry Francona has always expressed a preference for two, but usually qualifies that by saying it's not essential if he has a righty who is effective in getting lefties out.

Hideki Okajima would appear to have one job, and Dennys Reyes, signed by the Sox after he failed his physical with the Phillies, has been unscored upon in three spring outings. Reyes is in El Guapo-like shape, but he has a proven track record (4.18 ERA in 669 appearances for 10 big-league teams). More importantly, as WEEI's Rob Bradford was the first to report, he has a March 26 opt-out clause in his contract. If the Red Sox don't keep him, someone will grab him.

The only Red Sox players in camp who are out of options are Matt Albers, Bobby Jenks, and Darnell McDonald. Albers, the former Oriole, signed a one-year big league deal for $875,000, and has given up just one run in four spring appearances, allowing five hits in 5 1/3 innings while striking out five. Albers would have to clear waivers in order for the Red Sox to send him to Pawtucket.

The Sox are expected to keep 12 pitchers: five starters and seven pitchers in the pen. Jonathan Papelbon, Daniel Bard, Jenks, and Dan Wheeler are locks in the pen. Wakefield, who has said he would not play for another team, would appear to be in line for a fifth spot. Two lefties would mean no spot for Albers and Scott Atchison, who has options left but is well regarded by Francona. Rich Hill and Randy Williams are two veterans along with Reyes competing for a left-handed spot; Hill is throwing sidearm now, which has added a good deal of deception, but his command still needs some work, the source said.

It would be hard to add a bottom rotation guy to the Cardinals.  The only guy who hasnt pitched well this spring is Garcia and he will be cut some slack after what he did last year.  I thought Dice K would be interesting because of his cieling and lack of interest he would draw from other clubs.  After looking at the Red Sox roster I see why they really need a major league catcher.  The Cardinals dont have that.  Trading Molina now would surely push Pujols out the door.  Wakefield could still be interesting on the roster.  I dont think Duncan would want to coach a knuckleballer.  There are alot of names in that story.  I wonder if the Red Sox are really this open to wheeling and dealing.  They sure do stock up there roster for spring training.

"Boston starter Daisuke Matsuzaka(notes) pitched five shutout innings in his first solid start of the spring. He entered the game with an 11.42 ERA, but allowed only two hits, striking out five.

“I was placing my pitches today,† Matsuzaka said through his translator. “I was able to throw strikes. That’s all I need to do.â€

See, AP. As soon as you write him off, this is what he does. He's an ulcer waiting to happen.

Looks like someone woke up with his panties in a wad today.

But if you want to go there, please provide something showing the basic assertion that "Westbrook wasn't signed to be a back of the rotation starter" is false.  Performance doesn't dictate intent.  Please remind me who started the 2nd game of the season for the Cardinals. 

Jesus, quit being such a whiny douchebag.

Max wrote:

Who is being the whiny douchebag?

The guy who went 9 pages deep to dig up a thread that had been dormant for four months and used 6 month old quotes in an attempt to pat himself on the back while seeking sympathy.