artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

All this talk of change, expendable pieces, adding and subtracting at the same time and it seems as if nothing will be done.

When Piscotty comes off the DL, it will be like trading for an All-Star at the deadline.

But not necessarily one of this year's All-Stars.
 

But , keep in mind , the Cardinals have retained Eugene Koo ....

don.rob11 wrote:

But , keep in mind , the Cardinals have retained Eugene Koo ....

 
He's the best Korean translator on the team, after all.

AP, I like your assessment of the trade that didn't happen.  I would have been sick if they'd thrown in Flaherty on that trade.  Of course I don't have any idea what he'll become by 2018 or at anytime in the future.  But I'd rather take a chance on him than adding Sonny Gray. 

I do have a question about his knocking someone out of the rotation who probably shouldn't be there anyway.  It seems to me that Wainwright and Leake or a lock for different reasons.  Although I'm not as high on Martinez as some folks are, I can't see them putting him in the pen or trading him at this point.  Nor can I see them putting Wacha in the pen.  Assuming that they make a qualifying offer to Lynn and he turns it down, what do you see as the possibilities for the starting rotation with Gray added?  Now and next season?

On the subject of Weaver, I would also have included him in the trade with Piscotty but with some reservations.  I haven't made up my mind on him.  If the Cards keep him, I'd hope they can keep him in the pen for all of the 2018 season.
 

forsberg_us wrote:

I think a lot of people mistakenly assume Reyes will be part of the rotation next year. Typical recovery from TJ surgery is about 16 months. I wouldn't expect Reyes to be available until June/July, and I expect he'll be on an extreme innings limit, perhaps pitching out the bullpen.

Gray would have been a huge addition. My only concern about him would be durability/health. He's a small guy, and that doesn't always translate to a long career as a starter. But he's a guy who until last year's injury-filled season had a career ERA below 3 in the AL. He would arguably have been the best pitcher on the team.

 
If Reyes isn't in the rotation next year, I'm going to be very bitter.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (8/02/2017 8:54 pm)

Mags wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I think a lot of people mistakenly assume Reyes will be part of the rotation next year. Typical recovery from TJ surgery is about 16 months. I wouldn't expect Reyes to be available until June/July, and I expect he'll be on an extreme innings limit, perhaps pitching out the bullpen.

Gray would have been a huge addition. My only concern about him would be durability/health. He's a small guy, and that doesn't always translate to a long career as a starter. But he's a guy who until last year's injury-filled season had a career ERA below 3 in the AL. He would arguably have been the best pitcher on the team.

 
If Reyes isn't in the rotation next year, I'm going to be very bitter.

I agree with Fors on this one.  I hope they can keep Reyes in the pen until mid-season.
 

I'll be surprised if he starts a game before the All-Star Break

Mags wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Mags wrote:

I agree with Fors on this one.  I hope they can keep Reyes in the pen until mid-season.
 

I'll be surprised if he starts a game before the All-Star Break

So, would you make an effort to resign Lynn or just make him a qualifying offer?
 

Make the qualifying offer because there's little to no chance he takes it. I would assume the opening day rotation is Martinez, Wainwright, Leake, Wacha and Weaver or Flaherty.

Mags i forgot to address your question of the rotation now..who cares.  2017 is over.  The cubs have won 45 games in a row and the cardinals are daisy chained together with their heads up one anothers asses.  Gray imo would have been purely about 2018.

APIAD wrote:

Mags i forgot to address your question of the rotation now..who cares. 2017 is over. The cubs have won 45 games in a row and the cardinals are daisy chained together with their heads up one anothers asses. Gray imo would have been purely about 2018.

Unfortunately, a very large, vocal segment of the fans expect the Cards to be going for a Championship this year.  I'm not one.  I'd rather see the team be more realistic and build for next year and beyond.  But I am not at all representative.

Thus, here's why I have to care about 2017.  When folks talk about going after Sonny Gray this year, I find myself asking the question, How are we going to look the rest of the year if we haven't traded Lynn?  Are we going to have to read about Instagrams and petty statements from Wainwright, Leake, Wacha, or Martinez for the rest of the summer?
 

Players wouldnt be revolting is there was someone in charge.  Wacha to the bullpen would be smart and seeing it now would be good scouting for 2018 and an offseason shopping list.

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

Players wouldnt be revolting is there was someone in charge. Wacha to the bullpen would be smart and seeing it now would be good scouting for 2018 and an offseason shopping list.

I wouldn't put Wacha in the bullpen. He's been their best starter over the past month and what AP aptly refers to as his vaginal shoulder wouldn't be able to handle the work load.
 

I agree.  I've listened to the t.v. folks speculate about putting Wacha in the pen for some time now and I just think it's crazy.  Unless you've got a team that scores 10 runs a night, the bullpen is where you send arms to die for everyone but rookies or near rookies.
 

APIAD wrote:

Wacha left todays game in the 4th, with 81 pitches. If he isnt reliable as a starter and he cant pitch a few days a week in the pen, what do you do with him?

He's actually been pretty good over the past month, AP. At least statistically, he and Lynn have been the two best pitchers since the end of June. I don't know why Matheny pinch hit for him yesterday.

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

Wacha left todays game in the 4th, with 81 pitches. If he isnt reliable as a starter and he cant pitch a few days a week in the pen, what do you do with him?

He's actually been pretty good over the past month, AP. At least statistically, he and Lynn have been the two best pitchers since the end of June. I don't know why Matheny pinch hit for him yesterday.

He was barely getting by and was at 84 pitches, would meant that there was almost no chance he'd finish the 5th.  Whiskey Dan started to question the decision but Edmonds nixed it pretty quickly, pointing out that the Cards were going to have trouble getting runs and that they should go for it with a pinch hitter given the opportunity that they had.

It seems to me they are committed to finding out whether he can be brought along until he can carry a regularly load and obviously this is the last year that they can continue the experiment.

Frankly, I don't think there is much chance for him to ever be healthy, not only because of his history but also his delivery.  I have always bought into the "drop and drive" delivery, which is more of a 3/4's motion and makes good use of the pitcher's legs.  But Wacha is the epitome of the very popular "tall and fall" style that uses a straight overhand motion.  As far back as 1956, I read an article on pitching injuries that included medical explanations of how unnatural the baseball throwing motion is and how much harder the overhand motion is on a person's shoulder.  It made perfect sense to me than and still does.  But I get the impression that pitching coaches don't see it as part of their job to insure long careers.

My guess is that the love of "tall and fall" evolved in part from an effort to nullify the lowering of the mound.

Anyway, ever since I first saw Wacha pitch in Memphis I've been predicting that he would have a short career.
 

Last edited by Mags (8/04/2017 3:02 pm)