APIAD wrote:

The trade was better for the future of the cardinals.  I think that should be the focus.

 
The focus is on winning the World Series. It's the only focus. I think it's great the Cardinals have so many prospects and I'm pleased Memphis has a higher winning percentage this year than Real Madrid, but the point having a farm system is to supply the major league club with enough talent to win a championship. Who is in a better position to help the team accomplish that goal? Marco Gonzalez in the midst or a race for a playoff berth when they may have two spots to fill in the rotation or an outfielder who probably won't even be a September call up because they can't even find at bats for Piscotty, Bader and Sierra in St. Louis?

Gonzalez is pitching in Seattle and in 3 starts he has an ERA over 7 and is averaging 4 innings a start.  He doesn't make this team better. He honestly may not be a legit major league starter.

forsberg_us wrote:

Gonzalez is pitching in Seattle and in 3 starts he has an ERA over 7 and is averaging 4 innings a start. He doesn't make this team better. He honestly may not be a legit major league starter.

I wish I'd said that.

But since I didn't know it, I guess I couldn't have said it.
 

Last edited by Mags (8/21/2017 10:09 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

APIAD wrote:

There is no hope of a world series in 2017. There is barely hope of a playoff spot. Baseball isnt a do everything you can to win it all every year type of sport. You know that.

 
Really??? The Cardinals are in a better position now to make the playoffs than they were at this time in 2011, and they're on a pace to win as many games as they did in 2006. I'll address the subsequent posts after I get to work and have access to a real computer instead of this tablet.

Really.  This is a terrible team that has severe flaws.  Unlike the 2006 or 2011 teams, it doesn't have a Pujols around whom the lineup can rally nor does the rotation have a Carpenter around whom it can build.  They won 8 in a row against bad competition, otherwise they're 6 games under .500.  

"Let me first begin by saying, before someone else outrageously attributes to me claims that I never made nor would never in a drunken  tirade consider making, that I am not predicting the HOF for O'Neill or any of our current pitching prospects."

I never attributed anything about O'Neill to you. I've read elsewhere that the Cardinals think very highly of him, which is what they should say after they've violated the "You can never have too much pitching" guideline.
 Look, I hope O'Neill comes up in September and hits 20 home runs  and leads the Cardinals to the division title. But I've never seen him play, so I don't know.
So I'll throw it open to each of you - AP, Mags and Fors. The Cardinals have two spots in the rotation to fill. Should they: a) keep sending out Leake and his batting practice stuff; b) Wainwright, when (or if) he returns with his tingly elbow and 84-mph "heater;" c) Luke Weaver; d) Mike Mayers; e) Someone the organization feels isn't as ready as option c) or d)?
 

Last edited by artie_fufkin (8/22/2017 7:48 am)

artie_fufkin wrote:

"Let me first begin by saying, before someone else outrageously attributes to me claims that I never made nor would never in a drunken  tirade consider making, that I am not predicting the HOF for O'Neill or any of our current pitching prospects."

I never attributed anything about O'Neill to you. I've read elsewhere that the Cardinals think very highly of him, which is what they should say after they've violated the "You can never have too much pitching" guideline.
 Look, I hope O'Neill comes up in September and hits 20 home runs  and leads the Cardinals to the division title. But I've never seen him play, so I don't know.
So I'll throw it open to each of you - AP, Mags and Fors. The Cardinals have two spots in the rotation to fill. Should they: a) keep sending out Leake and his batting practice stuff; b) Wainwright, when (or if) he returns with his tingly elbow and 84-mph "heater;" c) Luke Weaver; d) Mike Mayers; e) Someone the organization feels isn't as ready as option c) or d)?
 

This is what I was thinking when I went to bed last night, though I had not seen any posts since my last one.  (1) Weaver stays in the rotation whether Wainwright comes back or not, so long as he pitches the way he has in 90% of the innings he's thrown, and (2), if they need another starter (as they almost certainly will), the job goes 1st to Gant -- who pitched very well for Memphis yesterday, eclipse and all.

If they come up short with those solutions, it's depends on a number of factors -- e.g., whether Rosenthal comes back, whether Siegrist comes back, whether Oh and Cecil come close to previous form, how Tui holds up with more exposure, how Bowman's arm holds up for the remainder of the season, whether Mayers can overcome his stage fright at the big show.

What I'm saying without saying is that I hope they can avoid starting the clock running on Flaherty this season.  But it depends on how good their chances.

BTW1.  I formed my opinion about Gonzalez based upon what I've seen of him with the Cards and in the organization.  I was completely unaware of how bad he had sucked until Fors post.  In fact, I had assumed he'd returned to AAA after one game.

BTW2.  I know you had hyperboleed me on O'Neill.  Fors and AP are the most recent culprits.  But you have done so in the long-forgotten (except by me) past.
 

Last edited by Mags (8/22/2017 8:28 am)

Gordo's take:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jeff-gordon/gordo-cards-depleted-pitching-poses-problems-now-and-in-future/article_b370997d-4b49-59f3-9544-b7cc7814e25e.html

A rambling, disjointed column on Weaver by Goold:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/weaver-clawing-his-way-into-cardinals-rotation/article_e6751efe-7ab6-5918-a8db-dda649158b68.html

I think his main point is that he himself was on the cruise.
 

Last edited by Mags (8/22/2017 8:46 am)

artie_fufkin wrote:

"BTW2.  I know you had hyperboleed me on O'Neill.  Fors and AP are the most recent culprits.  But you have done so in the long-forgotten (except by me) past."

Honestly, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the comparison to Mickey Mantle. I think one of the national writers (Olney? Rosenthal?) wrote in the aftermath of the trade that the Mariners had panciked by trading their best prospect. As for the past stuff, I can't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday.

Damnit.  I write like I read.  I thought I had included a not in there.  Try one and see if the rest of the paragraph doesn't make a little more sens.
 

One time many years ago, I was trying a case in Tax Court.  Of critical importance in the case was a letter one of the senior (most senior in terms of power) had written to protest a tax imposed on one of our biggest clients.  Despite ethical problems with putting on the testimony of a lawyer in the firm in a case, the Tax Court judge made it clear that he would like to hear from the letter-writer, who had insisted on testifying after it was introduced.  Because I needed my next pay check, I went forward and put on testimony that I strongly suspected to be false.  The guy took the stand and testified on direct exam that his secretary had omitted the word "not" from at least 5 different sentences in the letter.

Although that partner was only about 40 at the time, I'm slowly beginning to find his testimony less absurd than I once did.

In his written opinion, the Tax Court judge made it clear that his opinion matched my thinking at the time.

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

Yet with all those flaws they're 3.5 games out of the division lead and 4.5 games out of a wild card spot. So you're suggesting the Cardinals should run up the white flag? When their remaining schedule includes 12 of 38 games against opponents with winning records? You're going to throw up a "See You in 2018" sign to the fans who have paid for their tickets? See how that goes over.
 

Yes.

The long term future of the team is better served if they miss the playoffs and fans demand something better rather than backing into a playoff spot and promptly getting swept.

 I used to think Billy Beane's "the playoffs are a crapshoot" line was a loser's lament, but then 2006 happened. And then 2011 happened. And don't forget about 2004, when the best Cardinals' team of a generation ended up getting swept by a Wild Card team.
 

But again, both of those teams had Albert.  There is something about having a hitter that can hit any pitcher anytime that matters.  Perhaps even a young and healthy Beltran or a young and healthy Berkman would do the trick, though I doubt it.  But I just don't see the current Cardinal squad meeting that test.

Sorry Fors if I seem to be agreeing with you too much.  It was bound to happen.
 

Last edited by Mags (8/22/2017 9:12 am)

Mags wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

Yes.

The long term future of the team is better served if they miss the playoffs and fans demand something better rather than backing into a playoff spot and promptly getting swept.

 I used to think Billy Beane's "the playoffs are a crapshoot" line was a loser's lament, but then 2006 happened. And then 2011 happened. And don't forget about 2004, when the best Cardinals' team of a generation ended up getting swept by a Wild Card team.
 

But again, both of those teams had Albert.  There is something about having a hitter that can hit any pitcher anytime that matters.  Perhaps even a young and healthy Beltran or a young and healthy Berkman would do the trick, though I doubt it.  But I just don't see the current Cardinal squad meeting that test.

Sorry Fors if I seem to be agreeing with you too much.  It was bound to happen.
 

Outside of his 3-home run game - which I'll admit was a considerable contribution - Pujols was 3-for-30 and didn't drive in a run in the other six games.
Again, I'm not saying the 2017 Cardinals are a good team. But they're 3.5 games out with 38 games to play, 26 of which are against teams with a sub.-500 record. You can't pull the cord on the chute now.

Mags already touched upon this, but I'll add some additional thoughts.

The 2006 team had 4 Gold Glove defenders.  The players understood how to run the bases and rarely beat themselves with stupid play.  The pitching staff was centered upon a Cy Young winning pitcher who was in his prime.  And the lineup centered around Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds was extremely dangerous.

The 2011 team wasn't as gifted defensively, but the offense featured Pujols, Holliday and Berkman who combined for 90 HR while hitting a combined .299.  The lineup that went into the playoffs also featured Jon Jay (.297), Freese (.297), Molina (.305) and Schumaker (.283).  Again, the rotation was centered upon a Cy Young winner who almost single-handedly willed them through the NLDS and pitched the decisive game in the World Series.

The 2017 Cardinals play poor defense.  They're one of the worst baserunning teams in the history of the franchise, if not the entire history of baseball.  The only guy on the team with 60 RBI insists on hitting leadoff, and their best pitcher is a guy who most people on this board have wanted moved off the team at some point in his tenure.  Throw in the fact (sorry Mags) that the manager of the 2006 and 2011 version was a Hall of Fame manager who generally did a pretty good job of maximizing the production of the talent on his roster while the current manager barely understands the mechanics of a double switch and you'll have to forgive me if I can't draw a parallel between this year's team and the recent World Series winners.