Liz vs. Pivetta

I had a feeling when Pivetta broke off that nasty curve to strike out Carpenter to start the game this was going to be a tough night for the Cardinals.

I hate bowman

forsberg_us wrote:

I can’t stand Bowman, but Ozuna shares some of the blame. If you can’t catch the ball, you have to play it in a way that only 1 run scores. It may have just prolonged the inevitable but you have to give yourself a chance.

I think I know exactly what Ozuna was thinking. He saw his pitcher was throwing belt-high, 87 mph pitches and figured if he didn't make that catch, the next batter was going to win the game anyway. The previous batter was a slappy who almost won the game for them when he nearly hit the ball out of the park.
The panel on MLBN was all over Matheny for putting Santana on base as the winning run, but Matheny probably lost last night's game on Saturday when he inexplicably brought in Hicks to pitch a game the Cardinals weren't going to win. He pitched again on Sunday, thus rendering him unavailable on Monday, and probably tonight, and maybe even Wednesday unless Mathney's Magic 8-Ball tells him it's OK for Hicks to pitch.
Look, I realize Hicks is a unique talent, but if the organization is worried about his arm, then he should be in Memphis or Springfield where he can throw a dozen pitches every third day and it won't matter. Or they could set up a carnival-like exhibit in Ballpark Village and people can pay $5 to watch him throw one pitch at per day 105 mph. DeWitt would probably relish the additional revenue. But the objective at the major league level is to win baseball games. In the previous five days, Hicks threw 25 competitive pitches. That's really not a lot. I realize he has to throw warmup pitches in the bullpen and that takes a toll on his arm blah, blah, blah, but again, if they are that worried about ruining his arm, then they should give his roster spot to someone they are able to use more frequently.
All that being said, I'm about done with this version of the St. Louis Cardinals. There aren't a lot of players I particularly like, and I've made my displeasure with management and the organization fairly well-known. I stopped watching the Celtics about 20 years ago because I loathe Rick Pitino and I didn't like the product. I'm starting to get that way with the Cardinals under Matheny's management.

Last edited by artie_fufkin (6/19/2018 12:57 pm)

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I can’t stand Bowman, but Ozuna shares some of the blame. If you can’t catch the ball, you have to play it in a way that only 1 run scores. It may have just prolonged the inevitable but you have to give yourself a chance.

I think I know exactly what Ozuna was thinking. He saw his pitcher was throwing belt-high, 87 mph pitches and figured if he didn't make that catch, the next batter was going to win the game anyway. The previous batter was a slappy who almost won the game for them when he nearly hit the ball out of the park.
The panel on MLBN was all over Matheny for putting Santana on base as the winning run, but Matheny probably lost last night's game on Saturday when he inexplicably brought in Hicks to pitch a game the Cardinals weren't going to win. He pitched again on Sunday, thus rendering him unavailable on Monday, and probably tonight, and maybe even Wednesday unless Mathney's Magic 8-Ball tells him it's OK for Hicks to pitch.
Look, I realize Hicks is a unique talent, but if the organization is worried about his arm, then he should be in Memphis or Springfield where he can throw a dozen pitches every third day and it won't matter. Or they could set up a carnival-like exhibit in Ballpark Village and people can pay $5 to watch him throw one pitch at per day 105 mph. DeWitt would probably relish the additional revenue. But the objective at the major league level is to win baseball games. In the previous five days, Hicks threw 25 competitive pitches. That's really not a lot. I realize he has to throw warmup pitches in the bullpen and that takes a toll on his arm blah, blah, blah, but again, if they are that worried about ruining his arm, then they should give his roster spot to someone they are able to use more frequently.
All that being said, I'm about done with this version of the St. Louis Cardinals. There aren't a lot of players I particularly like, and I've made my displeasure with management and the organization fairly well-known. I stopped watching the Celtics about 20 years ago because I loathe Rick Pitino and I didn't like the product. I'm starting to get that way with the Cardinals under Matheny's management.

Another mistake thats been repeated in using hicks when he isnt needed and not having him when he is

APIAD wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I can’t stand Bowman, but Ozuna shares some of the blame. If you can’t catch the ball, you have to play it in a way that only 1 run scores. It may have just prolonged the inevitable but you have to give yourself a chance.

I think I know exactly what Ozuna was thinking. He saw his pitcher was throwing belt-high, 87 mph pitches and figured if he didn't make that catch, the next batter was going to win the game anyway. The previous batter was a slappy who almost won the game for them when he nearly hit the ball out of the park.
The panel on MLBN was all over Matheny for putting Santana on base as the winning run, but Matheny probably lost last night's game on Saturday when he inexplicably brought in Hicks to pitch a game the Cardinals weren't going to win. He pitched again on Sunday, thus rendering him unavailable on Monday, and probably tonight, and maybe even Wednesday unless Mathney's Magic 8-Ball tells him it's OK for Hicks to pitch.
Look, I realize Hicks is a unique talent, but if the organization is worried about his arm, then he should be in Memphis or Springfield where he can throw a dozen pitches every third day and it won't matter. Or they could set up a carnival-like exhibit in Ballpark Village and people can pay $5 to watch him throw one pitch at per day 105 mph. DeWitt would probably relish the additional revenue. But the objective at the major league level is to win baseball games. In the previous five days, Hicks threw 25 competitive pitches. That's really not a lot. I realize he has to throw warmup pitches in the bullpen and that takes a toll on his arm blah, blah, blah, but again, if they are that worried about ruining his arm, then they should give his roster spot to someone they are able to use more frequently.
All that being said, I'm about done with this version of the St. Louis Cardinals. There aren't a lot of players I particularly like, and I've made my displeasure with management and the organization fairly well-known. I stopped watching the Celtics about 20 years ago because I loathe Rick Pitino and I didn't like the product. I'm starting to get that way with the Cardinals under Matheny's management.

Another mistake thats been repeated in using hicks when he isnt needed and not having him when he is

It's just another indication of Matheny's incompetence.
But, I'm not sure Earl Weaver could manage the Cardinals' bullpen. The only two reliable arms have been Hicks and Norris. Tui has been OK, but in a perfect world he's a guy who you throw out there in the seventh inning when you're down by a couple of runs, not someone you entrust with a lead. Lyons has been inconsistent or hurt. Cecil has been awful or hurt. Mayers gave them two good innings last night, but he's been inconsistent, mostly because they've jerked him around so much. Same argument with Brebbia. Then you get to the dregs. The only bullpen arm that has given up more home runs than Bowman is Longball Leone, and he hasn't pitched since May 4. Gregerson and Holland, obviously, have been useless.
 

forsberg_us wrote:

Bowman has no business in any game where the team is +/- 2 runs. For that matter he has no business is an a major league uniform.

I’m not sure it’s getting better anytime soon. I had a lengthy discussion with Chad, and he was explaining the new hitting methodologies in light of the emphasis on launch angles and HRs. I don’t know how well I can explain it, but the way Chad described it was the path the bat head takes on a swing should look like a parabola with a flat or nearly flat bottom through the strike zone. Now, more players are loading up and dropping the bat head before it comes forward and the path looks like a check mark. If the bat head path is flat, the hitter can be a little early or late and still make good contact. They can also be a little high or low on the swing and still make decent contact. But if the bat head is traveling on an upward path through the zone, the bat and ball either make perfect contact and hit a HR or the swing is off and it’s either a pop up or a swing and miss. There’s almost no margin for error.

Chad wasn’t sure if the players are doing it on their own or if it’s being taught in the system. Apparently it was suggested that O’Neill needed to completely change his swing because the coaches don’t think he has a chance in the majors against decent pitching.

Once again, we see the problem of players not being honest about their condition.  It was obvious that Bowman was having blister problems last night but they let him continue, possibly because of the previous mismanagement of the pen and unfortunate signings (i.e., Cecil) had left them without alternatives.  At least so far as I could see.

I was not at all surprised to learn that Bowman has been returned to the DL.

BTW, the whole business about the proper swing is something new to me.  Somehow it sounds to me like something too complex to be realistic.
 

"BTW, the whole business about the proper swing is something new to me.  Somehow it sounds to me like something too complex to be realistic."

When the TV people start talking about launch angle and exit velocity, I get an popsicle headache.
Baseball is tending toward basketball in the only skills that seem to matter are the ones that get you a highlight clip on SportsCenter. The currency of the realm for the sabremetricians is OPS, which is important, but it leaves out about 95 percent of the sport. Not to beat a decaying horse here, but let's look at Matt Carpenter. He gets on base. Sure. He can hit 20-plus home runs. Great. But what does that do for the team? He's apparently confined to hitting out of the leadoff spot, so if he walks to open the game, the Cardinals still need two hits to bring him in because he can't steal bases and he can't go first to third on a single. And he's not driving in runs because after the first time through the order he's batting after the pitcher and a #8 hitter who is under .200. And then he has to play half the game int he field, where he has no defensive position.
And nothing - NOTHING - about sabremetrics takes pitching into account. That good pitching stops good hitting is a cliché, but it's also a truism. Look at the teams that have built launching pad ballparks to attract the shiny object crowd who can't be bothered unless they're watching a game that has a half-dozen home runs - Cincinnati, Milwaukee, the Bronx, Texas, Seattle, Baltimore. They don't win championships because they can't get good pitchers to come there. The Red Sox didn't win for 86 years and the Cubs didn't win for more than a century because they play in bandbox ballparks. Eventually, they were able to overcome that by annihilating everyone with payroll, but Chicago and Boston are among the biggest markets in the country.
 

Last edited by artie_fufkin (6/20/2018 7:53 am)

I doubt you’ll ever see good fundamentals return because there isn’t a stat for it. The game has replaced scouts who could actually watch and identify quality ball players with analysts who break down numbers. Most of the analysts have never played baseball at any point in their lives, but they’re experts in math and statistics.

We’ve reached the point that the game has largely degenerated to a giant version of Strat-o-matic baseball. We might as well just let computers play the games and tell us the results

artie_fufkin wrote:

"BTW, the whole business about the proper swing is something new to me.  Somehow it sounds to me like something too complex to be realistic."

When the TV people start talking about launch angle and exit velocity, I get an popsicle headache.
Baseball is tending toward basketball in the only skills that seem to matter are the ones that get you a highlight clip on SportsCenter. The currency of the realm for the sabremetricians is OPS, which is important, but it leaves out about 95 percent of the sport. Not to beat a decaying horse here, but let's look at Matt Carpenter. He gets on base. Sure. He can hit 20-plus home runs. Great. But what does that do for the team? He's apparently confined to hitting out of the leadoff spot, so if he walks to open the game, the Cardinals still need two hits to bring him in because he can't steal bases and he can't go first to third on a single. And he's not driving in runs because after the first time through the order he's batting after the pitcher and a #8 hitter who is under .200. And then he has to play half the game int he field, where he has no defensive position. 

I'll give you a perfect contrast to Matt Carpenter and his OPS--Tommy Herr.  Herr didn't hit HRs and he wasn't particularly fast; but he could handle the bat and he caught just about everything hit to him.  When the Cardinals won the pennant in 1985, Herr hit 3rd because someone who could handle the bat was exactly what the team needed behind Coleman and McGee.  He never complained, he just went out and drove in 110 runs (with only 8 HRs) by putting the ball in play.  I'm sure Herr's exit velocity and launch angle weren't as good as Carpenter's, and his career OPS was well below Carpenter's.  That said, I'd take Tommy Herr over Matt Carpenter any day.

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

"BTW, the whole business about the proper swing is something new to me.  Somehow it sounds to me like something too complex to be realistic."

When the TV people start talking about launch angle and exit velocity, I get an popsicle headache.
Baseball is tending toward basketball in the only skills that seem to matter are the ones that get you a highlight clip on SportsCenter. The currency of the realm for the sabremetricians is OPS, which is important, but it leaves out about 95 percent of the sport. Not to beat a decaying horse here, but let's look at Matt Carpenter. He gets on base. Sure. He can hit 20-plus home runs. Great. But what does that do for the team? He's apparently confined to hitting out of the leadoff spot, so if he walks to open the game, the Cardinals still need two hits to bring him in because he can't steal bases and he can't go first to third on a single. And he's not driving in runs because after the first time through the order he's batting after the pitcher and a #8 hitter who is under .200. And then he has to play half the game int he field, where he has no defensive position. 

I'll give you a perfect contrast to Matt Carpenter and his OPS--Tommy Herr.  Herr didn't hit HRs and he wasn't particularly fast; but he could handle the bat and he caught just about everything hit to him.  When the Cardinals won the pennant in 1985, Herr hit 3rd because someone who could handle the bat was exactly what the team needed behind Coleman and McGee.  He never complained, he just went out and drove in 110 runs (with only 8 HRs) by putting the ball in play.  I'm sure Herr's exit velocity and launch angle weren't as good as Carpenter's, and his career OPS was well below Carpenter's.  That said, I'd take Tommy Herr over Matt Carpenter any day.

​Excellent post. People forget how good defensively those Whitey teams were. And it wasn't just Ozzie. Pendleton was a plus defender at third. Van Slyke was so good in center they moved Willie to a corner outfield position. Coleman wasn't a Gold Glove-caliber defender, but with his speed he could run down just about anything. 
​And they had to be good defensively, because they didn't have strikeout pitchers in the rotation.
 

Agree with everything you said except Van Slyke didn’t move McGee out of CF. Van Slyke played mostly RF for the Cardinals because he had the better arm. He moved to CF after he was traded to Pittsburgh.

forsberg_us wrote:

artie_fufkin wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

I'll give you a perfect contrast to Matt Carpenter and his OPS--Tommy Herr.  Herr didn't hit HRs and he wasn't particularly fast; but he could handle the bat and he caught just about everything hit to him.  When the Cardinals won the pennant in 1985, Herr hit 3rd because someone who could handle the bat was exactly what the team needed behind Coleman and McGee.  He never complained, he just went out and drove in 110 runs (with only 8 HRs) by putting the ball in play.  I'm sure Herr's exit velocity and launch angle weren't as good as Carpenter's, and his career OPS was well below Carpenter's.  That said, I'd take Tommy Herr over Matt Carpenter any day.

​Excellent post. People forget how good defensively those Whitey teams were. And it wasn't just Ozzie. Pendleton was a plus defender at third. Van Slyke was so good in center they moved Willie to a corner outfield position. Coleman wasn't a Gold Glove-caliber defender, but with his speed he could run down just about anything. 
​And they had to be good defensively, because they didn't have strikeout pitchers in the rotation.
 

Agree with everything you said except Van Slyke didn’t move McGee out of CF. Van Slyke played mostly RF for the Cardinals because he had the better arm. He moved to CF after he was traded to Pittsburgh.

​My bad. After reading the article to which JV posted the link, it looks like Willie was hurt during part of '85.