The Cardinals are showing some interest in Pedro.  How retarded.

APRTW wrote:

The Cardinals are showing some interest in Pedro.  How retarded.

I like it. If there's one guy who hates Jonny Gomes more than anyone, it's Pedro. La Russa won't even have to ask Pedro to plunk Gomes. He'll just do it as a matter of routine.

It just shows how Walt was so savvy he was making those moves while still with the Cardinals.

"Now the Musial fans out there will get irate reading this, but I never saw Stan the Man, I never watched Red, Brock, or Coleman."

How does Vince Coleman warrant inclusion to that group? That's like saying you spent the '70s alternately dating Farrah Fawcett, Jaclyn Smith, Cheryl Ladd and a a 300-pound mud wrestler.

Alz, what happens when Pujols declines or retires?  Do you go root for another elite player?

APRTW wrote:

Alz, what happens when Pujols declines or retires?  Do you go root for another elite player?

No I will likely do what I did with McGwire. Continue to root for the team he last played on.

In Football, I have been a Dolphin fan my whole life, and never came off them. It's difficult because they are trying my patience with this fan thing too, but I don't invest money into the Dolphins from St. Louis, so it's easier to ignore.

In Hockey, I grew up watching the Penguins, I was a Lemiuex fan. Loved Mario. Loved Jagr too. When Mario hung them up, I started watching the Blues, and became a fan. That's the only time I've switched allegiance without cause.

"I was more trying to pinpoint through different Cardinal eras more than list the greatest ever. I did watch some of McGee and Ozzie however, so I was relunctant to name them."

Somone once said if Vince Coleman was a half-step slower, he would have been nothing more than the best player on his slow-pitch softball team.
And he went as a free agent from the Cardinals to the Mets. Back then, he could have pissed on the Arch and people in St. Louis would have been less offended.

alz wrote:

On the the Cardinal fans defecting. I think you're misunderstanding a decent percentage of "Cardinal Nation". I'm not part of "Cardinal Nation". I'm part of "Pujols Nation". Pujols is the name for God on the lips and hearts of everyone in St. Louis.

No, he really isn't.

If you're going to have a tirade, at least be accurate about the tirade.

Interesting that you didn't go back to the 80's when the team won 3 pennants and a World Series.  Remind me again, which of those teams did Pujols play on?

Throw out 90-95.  Those years were under an ownership that didn't give a rat's ass about winning.

1996- You apparently forgot that the 96 Cardinals made it to the 7th game of the NLCS.  Or then again, perhaps under your standards that's considered a shitty season.  Of course, if that's the standard, then a lot of Pujols' seasons have also been pretty shitty.

You are absolutely entitled to your perspective on the game.  If for you it's about the individual players, that's fine.  But for a lot of people it's much more about the uniform the players wear than it is about the players.  Albert Pujols may make individual history, but the St. Louis Cardinals franchise is already a historic franchise.  They are the most successful franchise in the history of the National League and are second only to the Yankees in all of baseball history.  That may mean nothing to you, but I promise you that it means quite a bit to a lot of people in St. Louis and in "Cardinal Nation."  If you really believe that this team won't continue to draw fans if Pujols leaves, you're delusional.

I was a Cardinal fan long before Albert Pujols ever stepped on a baseball diamond at any level.  I will continue to be a Cardinal fan, even if Albert Pujols isn't with the team in 2012.  Personally, I still believe he'll be here in 2012.  But even if he isn't, I will still root for the Birds on the Bat in 2012 and for many years thereafter. 

Show me where I ever posted that Pujols needed to "take one on the chin."  I think I've been very clear that I believe he's entitled to get as much out of this contract as he can.  What I have said, however, is that his current contract and whether or not it ended up a bargain for the Cardinals is irrelevant.  Both the team and Pujols took a chance when they signed this deal.  Pujols traded the right to early free agency for long term security.  I give him a lot of credit for never once bitching about it and honoring the agreement he signed.  A lot of people don't do that.  But the idea that the Cardinals should now say "well, we got a deal the first time, here's $350M to make up for it" is stupid.  After 2006, the Cardinals gave Carpenter a 5 year extension despite the fact that Carpenter was under contract for 2007 with an option for 2008.  Carpenter went out and was hurt on Opening Day of 2007 and missed all of 2007 and most of 2008.  Did Carpenter pay back any of the money he was paid during those seasons?  Does the fact that Carpenter's deal worked out to his advantage mean that he owes the Cardinals some sort of discount on his next deal?  You know as well as I do that the answer to both of these question is "of course not." 

As far as going to the post-season 5 times in Pujols' first 6 seasons, of course it wasn't random.  But don't kid yourself into thinking Pujols did it alone.  The success of 2000-06 was as much the result of the quality of the surrounding cast as it was about Pujols.  Baseball isn't an individual game.  Pujols can't win the pennant by himself which has been pretty conclusively proven by the lack of success the team has had the last 4 seasons despite the fact that Pujols has won 2 MVPs and finished 2nd once during that 4 year run.

Maybe I'm wrong, but ask a Giants fan which they enjoyed more--Bonds pursuit of Hank Aaron or the 2010 World Championship.  It's pretty funny that you're getting all bent out of shape about being "denied history" when I pretty much guarantee that if you asked Pujols he'd say that winning championships was more important than individual accomplishment.

APRTW wrote:

I bet Cardinals fans would care very little about Pujols going to another team in 2012 if the Cardinals have a good playoff team that year.  The issue that most fans have will not be if Pujols plays on the team or not.  It will be the quality of the team on the field.  Maybe it is just me but I dont think any player should be bigger then the team he plays for.  As a fan I cheer for teams first and players second.  One of the awesome things about Pujols is that even though he is the best player in the game he doesnt act like he is bigger then the team that employs him.

Bingo.

Again, I may be dead wrong, but I think that's why Pujols will still be a Cardinal in 2012.  I think he wants to be certain that he maximizes what the team offers him--as well he should--and knows that the best way to do that is to allow other teams to enter the bidding.  I also think that Pujols is smart enough to know that a $30+M annual salary would cripple this team from the standpoint of remaining competitive.  It may not mean anything to Alz, but I think being competitive is important to Pujols.  I don't think he needs a "max contract," but I do think he wants (and deserves) the Cardinals' "max contract."  And I don't think they've come anywhere near putting that on the table yet.

As witnessed by the Vince Coleman drama, you apparently don't need any truth to bash anyone for any statement. So the moment you said Pujols wasn't all that to St. Louis, I can assume that to mean you hate him, and every assumption I've made about your loyalties were indeed proven correct by your reply, honestly. I never said Pujols did it alone, but I'll happily say that very little of it happens without him. In 2006, I think we just need to lose a handful of games to miss postseason altogether, and I'll happily state that team without Pujols doesn't even clear .500 to make it to postseason.

The good news on this Fors? We'll fucking see in 2012 won't we. Let's see how awesome the Pujols-less, LaRussa-less Cardinals are then. All the bitching about how much TLR has fucked up the roster? Wait until they both fucking walk like Jocketty, and we'll just see how fast the 90's comes back.

Put down the fucking Kool-aid. You painfully point out the 90's group wasn't the glory days ownership. They didn't give a fuck about winning.... Neither has Dewitt since 2006..... The owners of the teams you loved as a kid (back before pujols put a foot on a diamond you were watching shittier players play and loving it remember?) don't own the one right now, but because they wear the same jersey, they get your everlasting blind devotion, forgiveness, and most importantly money??? Fors... I love ya man, talked to you a long time, but to me, that's the dumbest fucking perspective I've ever tried to wrap my head around in my entire life. That's like trying to rationalize Stockholme syndrome....

Seriously. Put down the fucking Kool-aid. This is a business. Dewitt painfully reminds us of this every day when he doesn't spend money improving the team. He doesn't give a rats fuck about your fan-hood. He cares about the paper in your wallet. He wants it. You give it to him. He could line up 9 piles of dogshit on the field, and you'll be sitting there with your foam finger asking for autographs? Is that how this goes? No thanks.

Sorry, my fanhood carries expectations of commitment on both sides, and trainwrecking a contract extension with the games best hitter (potentially ever) is a sure fire way to get me to wonder why the fuck I'm watching. Enjoy your 2012 cardinals, I don't know who I'm rooting for yet, but unless Dewitt pulls the trigger and makes AP the highest paid player in the game (as he deserves to be), I will have two favorite teams. Whoever Albert plays for, and whoever plays the Cardinals. This is simply unforgivable.

-Closing Note- Bonds didn't spend his entire career in San Fransisco and was part of the roids scandals. With a full career in a clean environment? I'm sure the average fan would have a tough time choosing.

Alz, you really don't know how clueless that last post shows you to be.

Blind devotion?  Seriously?  Perhaps if you had been around the message boards a little more you'd know that I stopped going to Cardinal games after the debacle of 2007 and when they refused to spend money to fix the problem in 2008.  I went to 1 game in 2009 and that's only because my daughter's gymnastics group performed on the field pre-game, and I only agreed to go to that game because it was after they traded for Holliday.  I can safely say that despite working less than 200 yards from the stadium, I haven't spent $100 on Cardinal baseball in the last 3 seasons.  You need to quit making assumptions because all you're doing is fulfilling the saying.

My dislike and disagreement with ownership has led me to stop spending money on the team.  It hasn't affected the fact that I root for the team and hope it succeeds.  I can be a fan without giving Bill Dewitt my money and that's exactly what I've done for the past 3 seasons.

I don't know Pujols to like or to hate him.  I root for him because he plays on the team I cheer for.  But would I feel the same way about him if he had come up with and spent the last 11 years on another team?  Hell, no.  Quite honestly, the level of adulation you are pouring on this guy is almost disturbing.  You do realize that we're talking about a baseball player, don't you?  Yes, he's a very good one--probably the best playing the game today and potentially one of the best of all-time.  But a baseball player nonetheless.  Are you really going to lose sleep worrying about whether or not Albert Pujols gets $250M or $350M in his next contract or what team he gets that money from.  Personally I think there are a lot more important things in life to be concerned with.

Quite honestly, the only intelligent thing you've said in the last 3 posts is to ask yourself why you are here.  Perhaps I'm speaking out of turn, but I'm pretty sure that AP, TK, Artie, Windy, Web, DonRob and even Max will remain Cardinals fans even if Pujols leaves.  This is a message board for "Cardinals fans."  I'm sure you can find a "Pujols fan" board somewhere on the internet.

Last edited by forsberg_us (2/25/2011 5:12 pm)