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10/04/2020 8:26 am  #1


Offseason Thread

Almost a relief for it to be here.  Think it is time for a gut job. 

Resign yadi and waino and let them play their careers out on a meaningless team.

Let wong walk.  He is never going to be more then an average player in st louis.

Fire sell Fowler.  Just release him if you have to.  Then take that process and repeat it with carp.

Carlos needs traded

O niell isnt a start. 

Even Goldschmidt could be traded for all I care. 

Let all the young guys have a run at it and completely redo this roster.  It is horrible and not entertaining.

 

10/04/2020 12:11 pm  #2


Re: Offseason Thread

Martinez is due $35 million over the next two seasons. Good luck to Moz trying to find someone dumb enough to take that contract without having to throw in a couple of younger players who actually have value.
Ditto with Carpenter, who is owed $37 million over two years. 
Fowler has one year left at $16.5 million. He might be a guy the Cardinals can move at the trade deadline if they're not in contention for a playoff spot.
They owe Goldschmidt $100 million over the next four years. He's going nowhere. 
You might be right about Wong. But I still like his defense. 
It's hard to judge the young guys by what they did this year because the season was so abnormal. O'Neill has another year of team control. He'll be back, but I don't think he warrants 500 at bats. I'm more worried about Bader. If he could just hit .250 instead of .220, I'd keep him around for his defense.
I see no reason not to bring Wainwright or Molina back.

 

10/04/2020 2:25 pm  #3


Re: Offseason Thread

Martinez is due $11.5 next year. There are options for 2022 and 2023. He’s still young, so there may be someone willing to take a shot on him.

Carpenter’s owed $18M next year with an option for 2022. Fowler is owed $16.5M. No one is going to want them until maybe the trade deadline. If the team is serious about winning, neither will start next season, and for that reason I expect both to start.

Wong’s 2021 option is only $12.5M. He’s worth that, and I’d exercise the option.

I’m willing to cut DeJong some slack because he had Covid, but he was awful this year. I hope that doesn’t turn out to be another mistaken extension.

I’m not sure Edman is anything more than a utility guy.  His slugging percentage this season was .368. If he starts next year, it should probably only be if they let Wong walk and Edman starts at 2B.

Carlson seems to be a legitimate OF prospect. Not a superstar, and probably not an all-star, but he’s the best overall OF on the roster.

Assuming they re-sign Molina and exercise Wong’s option, C, 1B, 2B, SS and 1 OF spot are filled by legitimate major league starters. That leaves 3B, 2 OF spots and probably the DH (I don’t think it’s going away. I assume Edman gets another year to figure out what they’ve got. That still leaves 3 starting spots. If they fill them from within, the team will be unwatchable again. At least 2 of those spots need to come from outside of the organization.

I’ll do pitching later.

 

10/04/2020 9:53 pm  #4


Re: Offseason Thread

Pitching.

Dump Martinez. I’m not sure how much value he has, but I think he’s a case of addition by subtraction. He’s a distraction and he’s not good enough to be worth the headache.

Supposedly Milolas will be back. Re-sign Wainwright. Flaherty and Kim give you 4 starters and let Ponce de Leon and Gomber compete for the 5th spot. It’s not great, but it’s not terrible.

I assume Hicks will be healthy and ready to close. If this season provided any value, they got to see a lot of people. They should be able to cobble together a decent enough bullpen with what they have. 

Short version, this off-season should be devoted to upgrading the offense.

 

10/04/2020 10:33 pm  #5


Re: Offseason Thread

Feel like it is hard to rebuild the offense with the same names on the roster.  I dont expect them to replace fowler or carp while they are still on the team.  Lane Thomas would be better then fowler if they would just give fowler away.

     Thread Starter
 

10/05/2020 9:48 am  #6


Re: Offseason Thread

I understand what you're saying, but sometimes players will thrive if you put them in the right position to do so.  IMO, this is one of the things the Cardinals have been really bad about, especially since TLR left.  

For example, it's probably unrealistic to expect Paul Dejong to ever be a very good #4 hitter.  But I still think it's possible he could be an effective hitter and a piece of a pretty decent lineup if he was hitting #6 or #7 instead of #4.

I haven't looked at potential free agents, so I have no idea if the market even offers what the Cardinals might need to fix this mess.  But it's pretty clear they need at least one guy who can hit #1 or #2 who can get on base in front of Goldschmidt and a legitimate #4 hitter behind him to provide some protection.

I've bitched all season about the decision to let Ozuna walk.  To be clear, I wouldn't have given Ozuna the long term deal he wanted when he hit free agency.  He came to camp out of shape and clearly hadn't done his rehab as the team wanted, and I get that might have left a bad taste for some.  But when the market didn't materialize, and it became apparent he was only getting a one, maybe two year deal, there isn't any reason the team shouldn't have re-entered the bidding.  Maybe they did, and maybe by that point Ozuna was pissed off and wouldn't come back.  I don't know, although I recall some stories around that time suggesting that wasn't the case.  The Cardinals very confidently proclaimed that the variety pack of outfielders they had would replace Ozuna's production.  They didn't come remotely close.  

Again, just my opinion, I don't think they make wholesale changes.  I suspect they'll bring in one new body (but not a premiere name) and you'll see some combination of Carpenter, Fowler, O'Neill and Bader flailing at pitches again next season.  Fact is, they made the playoffs again, and I suspect the front office will try to tell us they don't need a major upgrade.  Anyone who watches (and admittedly, I rarely watched) can see they need a lot of help, but until they completely implode, I don't think it will happen.

 

10/05/2020 1:42 pm  #7


Re: Offseason Thread

I agree that's what they will do but I still think a gut job is a solution.  Just be bad for a few years and concentrate on a better brand of baseball.  As you pointed out they are misusing the good players they have.  It would be better to reset and build something instead of just treading water with the same expensive names.

     Thread Starter
 

10/05/2020 3:06 pm  #8


Re: Offseason Thread

The problem with tanking is that it implies an ability to evaluate talent.  Just because a team consistently drafts near the top doesn't guarantee future success.  The Cardinals have shown me very little in the way of an ability to analyze or develop talent.

 

10/06/2020 1:01 am  #9


Re: Offseason Thread

forsberg_us wrote:

The problem with tanking is that it implies an ability to evaluate talent.  Just because a team consistently drafts near the top doesn't guarantee future success.  The Cardinals have shown me very little in the way of an ability to analyze or develop talent.

Agreed about the analyze and develop talent...but I wouldnt call replacing fowler, carp and wong with a combination of Carlson, Thomas, Edman, Gorman, as tanking. Nor do I approve of tanking. Wong can be of use but carp and fowler are ty wiggington.

     Thread Starter
 

10/06/2020 1:19 am  #10


Re: Offseason Thread

Without trying to hard 21 free agency list

3b
Justin Turner
Todd Frazier

Of
Brett garden
Ozuna
Joc Peterson
Starling Marte
George Springer

I suppose you could create a meaningful addition to the team out of that group.

     Thread Starter
 

10/06/2020 1:44 pm  #11


Re: Offseason Thread

APIAD wrote:

Without trying to hard 21 free agency list

3b
Justin Turner
Todd Frazier

Of
Brett garden
Ozuna
Joc Peterson
Starling Marte
George Springer

I suppose you could create a meaningful addition to the team out of that group.

Yuck

Turner is about to turn 36.  I wouldn't have minded signing him to his last contract, but I wouldn't want to be a part of his next one.  Frazier isn't a legitimate start any more and he's about to turn 35

Brett Gardner is 37.  I have no idea if Ozuna would consider returning, but that might be mildly interesting.  Pederson is at least under 30, but he hit .190 last season.  That sounds a lot like what they already have.  Marte has a very reasonable option for 2021 that assume will be exercised, so he won't be a free agent.  That leaves Springer.  My first reaction is that he's exactly the kind of player the Cardinals never sign because he might be the biggest name in the market and the Cardinals never get that guy.  Then again, I really don't know how much the sign stealing scandal has impacted league-wide opinion regarding the Astros players.  Springer didn't have as big of a drop off as Bregman or Altuve, but it seems like he's hurt a lot.  He'd definitely improve the Cardinals outfield, but he strikes me as a guy who will go to the highest bidder and that's usually not the Cardinals.

 

10/06/2020 1:48 pm  #12


Re: Offseason Thread

Here's an article with the top 25 free agents, along with some notable players with options and opt-outs

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-top-free-agents-2021-class 

 

10/06/2020 9:58 pm  #13


Re: Offseason Thread

So outside of the cardinals being willing to give ozuna a better deal then they were willing to offer last year or winning the Springer lottery you dont see a meaningful free agent to sign?

That's my point.  Blow it up.

     Thread Starter
 

10/07/2020 12:56 am  #14


Re: Offseason Thread

"The Cardinals rank 23rd of 30 teams in home runs since the start of the 2017 season, and their 51 homers in 2020 was a league low.  There’s no easy way to correct this power shortage, leaving The Athletic’s Mark Saxon to speculate that St. Louis might need to make some tough choices to get some more pop into the lineup without drastically (or at all) increasing payroll.  For instance, could the Cards again trade from their depth of pitching prospects for a bat, even while their need for additional arms might be greater in 2021?  Or, a more drastic option could be to decline Kolten Wong‘s $12.5MM option for 2021 and install Tommy Edman at second base, freeing up some money to land a slugger."

     Thread Starter
 

10/07/2020 8:03 pm  #15


Re: Offseason Thread

APIAD wrote:

So outside of the cardinals being willing to give ozuna a better deal then they were willing to offer last year or winning the Springer lottery you dont see a meaningful free agent to sign?

That's my point.  Blow it up.

You keep saying blow it up, but blow it up to do what?  Play Tyler O’Neill and Harrison Bader? They’ve already done that. Presumably those guys were the best the system had to offer. You’re basically proposing playing players worse than the ones we’ve already seen. How is that a fix?

 

10/07/2020 8:05 pm  #16


Re: Offseason Thread

Arozarena might look good in a Cardinals uniform right now.

Liberatore better be really good.

 

10/07/2020 10:39 pm  #17


Re: Offseason Thread

forsberg_us wrote:

APIAD wrote:

So outside of the cardinals being willing to give ozuna a better deal then they were willing to offer last year or winning the Springer lottery you dont see a meaningful free agent to sign?

That's my point.  Blow it up.

You keep saying blow it up, but blow it up to do what?  Play Tyler O’Neill and Harrison Bader? They’ve already done that. Presumably those guys were the best the system had to offer. You’re basically proposing playing players worse than the ones we’ve already seen. How is that a fix?

Lane Thomas is worst then fowler.  And idk who is worst then carp, a position less player on a nl team.

     Thread Starter
 

10/08/2020 8:29 am  #18


Re: Offseason Thread

A year ago, we probably would have said there’s no way O’Neill could be worse than Fowler. But he was. And yeah, as much as I despise Matt Carpenter (and I do despise Matt Carpenter), there are plenty of guys in the minors who would post worse numbers in the major leagues.

 

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