tkihshbt wrote:

They tagged the mighty Cliff Lee for three runs. That was a really, really good effort.

Also, I think they found their new third baseman.

That's the first time Lee has walked six guys in a game. He usually doesn't walk six guys in a month.
Maybe the baseballs were rubbed up too much.

you are correct. there was one out.

glad we won.  too bad they didn't do just a bit more damage from 2 walks and 3 hits, or whatever it was.

I didn't think you were being a smart ass.  Rather, Fors has me on my toes these days: You were right and I was wrong.  It feels good to get it off my chest.  We should all try it.

Now someone remind me, which of us were saying: Lohse sucks.  It's not that he's injured.  It's that he really, really sucks?

Interesting note about Pujols at 3rd.

If you can't resign him (and at this point management has to consider that unlikely), play him at 3rd until Freese comes back. If he gets hurt, you're only paying him through year end, if he plays well, you have Berkman at first, and can put Jay in the outfield.

If I was Pujols, this is not something I would have even considered entertaining, but apparently it was his idea. Run with it.

alz wrote:

If you can't resign him (and at this point management has to consider that unlikely)

I'm curious as to what you base this on.  I'd think that everything that has happened to this point of the season works to the Cardinals favor.  The longer he hits in the .260 range, the greater the concern that age/injury are catching up with him.  You still think teams are lining up to offer him a 10 year deal?

At this rate, Pujols may be playing himself down to a 5-6 year deal which is something I'd think the Cardinals would be more than willing to do.  Of course it's only mid-May and a lot can change over the next 4 months, but the first 7 weeks have not helped Pujols' contract push.

forsberg_us wrote:

alz wrote:

If you can't resign him (and at this point management has to consider that unlikely)

I'm curious as to what you base this on.

Common sense, and 25 years of watching free agency. If you can, name me a mega-superstar from the modern era that walked to Free Agency's doorstep, then signed a deal with the home team before asking around? Or one that took a long look around the league, and then took a pay cut to continue playing for the home team? Cliff Lee is the closest I can think of, but he went to a previous team, not his current team (the Rangers). He also went to a strong bid among three SERIOUSLY top money offers, nothing was low-balled to him.

My common sense take of "What it takes for Pujols to remain a Cardinal".
A) The Cardinals make him a great offer he can't refuse during the season. It will have to be great to put it to his agent, because Albert doesn't want to negotiate during the season. I see this as unlikely.
B) The Cardinals will have to make him a great offer during the limited time they can deal with him exclusively after the close of the season, this is their best chance, but I still see it as unlikely. Nobody that close to unrestricted free agency is going to sign without hearing from other clubs first.
C) The Cardinals will need to be a top shelf offer, or close enough to it that he doesn't want to relocate over the difference. I haven't seen anything in the Cardinals payroll to suggest they will make a financial move on that level.

So what other conclusion should I draw, that I expect him to be a Cardinal in 2012? I don't. As much as it pains me to say it, I have trouble imagining the Cardinals getting it done. I hope I'm wrong, but if you ask me to venture a bet on it, he's gone already.

This is a topic we've already beaten to death, and will likely mark the end of my following of the Cardinals. Let's not rehash the whole stupid thing just because we haven't talked about it in a while.

At any event, if you're concluding you have no prayer of resigning him... This move makes a world of sense. If he can play third effectively, you have Berkman at First, and Jay can be in the outfield. That's two strong defensive upgrades. Get Freese back, and go back to normal.

Edit: Artie. I hope you're right, I just don't believe you are.

Last edited by alz (5/17/2011 10:49 am)

alz wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

alz wrote:

If you can't resign him (and at this point management has to consider that unlikely)

I'm curious as to what you base this on.

Common sense, and 25 years of watching free agency. If you can, name me a mega-superstar from the modern era that walked to Free Agency's doorstep, then signed a deal with the home team before asking around? Or one that took a long look around the league, and then took a pay cut to continue playing for the home team?

Fair enough.  For the record, I'm not suggesting that Pujols won't become a free agent.  But I agree with Artie that in the end, he's back with the Cardinals.  The relationship between the two makes way too much sense for either of them to end it.  I think your option C eventually happens, which goes back to my point that the worse Pujols plays, the easier that becomes for the Cardinals.

Do you still think someone is going to offer him a contract comparable to A-Rod's?

It depends, do you expect him to get a deal greater than or equal to Howards? I would still say he commands more. Assuming we're right, we're starting the level above 25 million a season.

I would say that I think Pujols is crazy if he still expects 10 years in free agency. I'd assume he's now shooting for 9/270.

Still.... That is a lot of money for a long time, and to this point he's the third most feared bat on the team.

I think it's true that he will need to raise his numbers if he expects the contract numbers he wants from St. Louis. The downside is that I don't think he'll discount his price if he doesn't. He can easily say this year was an off year because of the contract, and would never happen again. Athletes live with supreme confidence in their capabilities, and I could see it working badly. Especially if the Cardinals start performance sniping (which they HAVE to do to protect the financial interest of the Cardinals, but will probably go over badly with someone like Albert...). The best situation for everyone would be him picking up his numbers, having a decent AP season (.315/30HRs/100Runs/120RBIs), finishing in the top 5 for MVP, but not winning, and getting a 7-8 year deal worth the AAV that he was hoping to get for 10 (9 now).

I'm fairly certain I thought (possibly even wrote) this. Lohse and Penny last year combined had me nearly nuclear. The whole blown year I could easily throw at their feet. Penny was throwing great, and tweaks himself swinging a bat, and out for the year..... Lohse just lost his ability to throw anything, and I didn't think surgery was the issue. I just thought he sucked.

Clearly I was wrong. Cut him open as much as you like!

weird look at pujols's freakishly bad season.  it's not just BA, but the power outage is really whacked.

look at his rank on the team (not counting augenstein's 1 AB, 1 H, 1 SLG, 2 OPS):

SLG: 7th (behind all starters except SS)
2B: tied with 2 for 11th - 13th!!! (behind Punto?  Laird???  even though Pujols has 4.5x as many ABs compared with Laird???????) 

Freakish.  I wonder if perhaps elbow surgery and an end to his season in the offing.