forsberg_us wrote:

Maybe someone with a better memory than mine can help out. I have a vague recollection that the reason Tony Womack came available in 2004 was either that he was still recovering from Tommy John surgery or that he was still rehabbing after not having the surgery and the Red Sox didn't think he'd be ready in time to start the season. I have some recollection that whatever Womack's situation, his recovery was much faster than expected. Anyone else remember or am I making this up?

I think you're right. The Red Sox dumped him and picked up Mark Bellhorn, he of the 300-foot-pop-up-off-the-foul-pole in the eighth inning of Game 1 of the 2004 World Series.

Max wrote:

forsberg_us wrote:

"This team does not eat Adam Kennedy sized mistakes."

LMAO!!!  You do remember that the team released Adam Kennedy before his contract expired, don't you?

Yes, but they made us suffer at least one season too long.  They ate 1/3 of an Adam Kennedy sized contract if my memory serves me.

You expected them to release him the day after Jocketty signed him?

"They sat on him a lot longer than made baseball sense.  That was business."

Kennedy was terrible his first season, after which I seem to remember it was revealed he was going through marital issues. Kennedy hit .280 his second and last season with the team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kennead01.shtml?mobile=false

"How long did we keep trotting Junior Spivey out there after it was clear he wasn't what was needed?"

Junior Spivey never played a game as a Cardinal. He was sent to the minors and never played well enough to earn a major league at bat.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spiveju01-bat.shtml?mobile=false

Keep tilting at those windmills.

"Junior Spivey never played a game as a Cardinal. He was sent to the minors and never played well enough to earn a major league at bat. "

Exactly, we didn't trot him out there even once.  That was my point.  He was brought in to play second base, it didn't work out, and they ate the Junior Spivey deal from day one and went with Womack.  The business side of that was small enough that they went purely baseball.  Kennedy was different; it was a three year deal and they weren't going to eat "an Adam Kennedy sized contract".

Max wrote:

"Junior Spivey never played a game as a Cardinal. He was sent to the minors and never played well enough to earn a major league at bat. "

Exactly, we didn't trot him out there even once.  That was my point.  He was brought in to play second base, it didn't work out, and they ate the Junior Spivey deal from day one and went with Womack.  The business side of that was small enough that they went purely baseball.  Kennedy was different; it was a three year deal and they weren't going to eat "an Adam Kennedy sized contract".

R-i-g-h-t. You know Max, if you're going to try to fix a misstatement, you might want to avoid making a second misstatement. Womack wasn't signed to replace Spivey. Womack was signed in 2004 to replace Marlon Anderson and Bo Hart. Spivey was replaced by a combination of Aaron Miles and Hector Luna until they traded for Ronnie Belliard.

The fact of the matter is they ate $4M of Kennedy's contract. In 2011, they ate about $3M combined when they released Franklin and Batista. Does that mean they're going to cut ties with Furcal and his $7.5M?  Nope. But right now I'm not sure they have a better option at SS even if they wanted to cut him. You want them to sign Stephen Drew?

"R-i-g-h-t. You know Max, if you're going to try to fix a misstatement, you might want to avoid making a second misstatement. Womack wasn't signed to replace Spivey. Womack was signed in 2004 to replace Marlon Anderson and Bo Hart. Spivey was replaced by a combination of Aaron Miles and Hector Luna until they traded for Ronnie Belliard. "

Corrected on that.  But my original intent was, indeed, to contrast the fact that they ate the Junior Spivey deal from day one and they didn't with Adam Kennedy.  Thus, this team does not eat Adam Kennedy sized contracts.

forsberg_us wrote:

"They sat on him a lot longer than made baseball sense.  That was business."

Kennedy was terrible his first season, after which I seem to remember it was revealed he was going through marital issues. Kennedy hit .280 his second and last season with the team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kennead01.shtml?mobile=false

Didnt he also have knee and eye issues?  One or the other?  I cant remember now.

Maybe that was Greene now that I think about it.

Last edited by APIAD (11/15/2012 10:59 am)

I look at Kennedy's stats and I think half of the 16 RBI he had last year came against the Cardinals during that 4-game series in L.A. early in the season.

"The La Russa era was more marked by quantity at 2B than by quality."

You could say that about any era probably since Rogers Hornsby retired. Honestly, outside of Joe Morgan and Robby Alomar, how many truly great second basemen have their been in the past 50 years? Robby Cano, I suppose, but he's got to do it for a few more years before he's considered in all-time terms. These days, it's usually a spot where old shortstops who still have a little bit left in their bat go to finish out their careers.

Of course not "immediately", that's called a "straw man" when someone unfairly characterizes another person's argument for the purposes of ridiculing it; refer to the SEC echo chamber discussion for an example of me doing that to Fors' argument about why Obama won.

But the Cardinals 2B offers excellent examples of cutting bait quickly.  Marlon Anderson got 253 ABs in 2004, Tony Womack was brought in last minute and got 553 ABs.

Max wrote:

"how many truly great second basemen have their been in the past 50 years?"

I'm not so partisan as to overlook Ryne Sandberg.

I, on the other hand, am.

"Marlon Anderson got 253 ABs in 2004"

I recall Anderson coming up with some big pinch-hits that year. That may not have been the role they envisioned for him when they signed him, but he wasn't an airball like Junior Spivey or Juan Gone.
Not entirely germain to the discussion, but maybe it should be pointed out.

"Basicly Kennedy was released because of a his crying and not producing two year prior to being cut."

That, and if I remember correctly, Kennedy blew off Winter Warm-up the off-season he was released.  That's a big deal to the team unless there's a pretty good reason to miss.